Chams, Czechs and Jews
Posted by Abravanel, the Blog στο 09/03/2008
A guy runs into an ancient Hitler in a bar in Argentina. He asks him what his plans are for the future.
«This time,» he says, «we’ll kill all the Jews, and three circus clowns.»
«Why three circus clowns?,» the guy asks.
«See,» Hitler says to the bartender. « Nobody gives a damn about the Jews!»
What really gets me sometimes is the fact that I cannot open the TV without having to endure some idiocy on jews, despite our infinitesimally small number in Greece. A good example is a recent symposium on the fate of the moslim population of albanian descent that lived in the area of north-west Greece, called Chams/Çamë.
To put it in few words this population faced persecution during WW2 which resulted in the expulsion of the whole community, roughly 15.000 -20.000 refugees. Many argue that this was a direct result of their collaboration with the invading fascist Italy and I tend to agree that it didn’t help out though this is not an excuse to massively punish the people who didn’t take part; personally I find it completely unacceptable. I won’t even mention that cold-blood murder of anyone is evil in any case and cannot be justified whatever one may offer as a pretext! Plus as somebody wisely put it: in that case the greeks of Asia Minor were justly evicted by Turkey in 1923 since they too were collaborators with an invading force. ;-)
Anyway to cut things short I was seeing the news at AlphaTV when I saw the reportage on the symposium, which was interrupted by «patriotic» partecipants, which many suspect to be members of the far-right party of LAOS. These vigorously denied any wrongdoing of Greece. Between the shouts and accusations a «patriot» proudly shouted:
«Cham, Czech, Tsifut – Telos!» alluding that the Chams, the Czechs and the Jews are the worst people on the world.
First of all the correct proverb, as far as I know is «çam çoban çifut» which appears to be more correct and is translated as «chams, shepherds and jews».
Afterwards people complain that Jews know only to whine/ complain and that nobody really deals with them. Then how come in this matter, where Jews have absolutely nothing to do with this people, they have to be mentioned as the arch-villains to whom the Chams are compared with? Why does every single time that the word «jew» comes up in the TV, this must be in a negative environment? There are always exceptions, like the recent show on the Jews of Ioannina I posted about, but these exceptions are so few as to be recalled one by one in the last 15 years that independent TV exists in Greece.
This latest example of chauvinism prompted a great post on the symposium by touki8eblom which I invite you to read, (also IOS wrote about it). Plus thanks to SPY we have the video, (the phrase can be heard round the 2nd minute). Strangely enough it brought up the fate of the greek jews of those area, (most notably those of Ioannina and Trikala), which perished almost totally during the Holocaust/ Shoah. It seems that both Chams and greek right-wing partisan group EDES supported the annihilation of the jews of their region; exception is being made for the predominant left-wing EAM/ELLAS partisans. Chams are responsible to the degree that some of them created a fascist militia which aided initially the italians/ germans and actively aided the roundup of the jews, (the source is Mazower’s book «Inside Hitler’s Greece»). EDES is responsible because it did not object the expulsion of greek citizens but actually «hailed» (sic) the german operations, (source A.Christinidis via GHM).
Here’s the excerpt on EDES:
Μετά την ανατροπή του Μουσολίνι έπαψε η Ιταλία, την 8η Σεπτεμβρίου 1943, να ανήκει στις δυνάμεις του «Άξονα». Οι Γερμανοί αντέδρασαν αμέσως. Οι ιταλικές στρατιωτικές μονάδες της Μεσογείου διαλύθηκαν, αιχμαλωτίστηκαν ή εξοντώθηκαν από τη Βέρμαχτ. Ολόκληρη πια η Ελλάδα, καθώς και η Αλβανία, το Μοντενέγκρο και τα Δωδεκάνησα βρέθηκαν κάτω από τη γερμανική κατοχή. Σε αυτή την περιοχή ζούσαν 16.000 Εβραίοι. Η σύλληψη των Ελλήνων Εβραίων της πρώην ιταλικής ζώνης κατοχής αποφασίστηκε από την RSHA («Κεντρική Υπηρεσία Ασφαλείας του Ράιχ») να γίνει με μια αστραπιαία επιχείρηση εντός τριών ημερών, από την 23η έως την 25η Μαρτίου 1944. Μια εικόνα της οργάνωσης και διεξαγωγής αυτής της επιχείρησης παρέχει μια αναφορά για την εκτόπιση των Εβραίων των Ιωαννίνων. Ο Μπεργκμάγερ (Bergmayer), μέλος της γερμανικής μυστικής χωροφυλακής (Geheime Feldpolizei-Gruppe 621), στην αναφορά του, με ημερομηνία 27 Μαρτίου 1944, που βρίσκεται στα αρχεία των μεταγενέστερων δικών της Νυρεμβέργης (μέ στοιχεία NOKW-1915) περιγράφει μεταξύ άλλων: «Ώρα 3 το πρωί [της 25ης Μαρτίου] έδωσε εντολή ο Χάφρανεκ [ταγματάρχης της γερμανικής αστυνομίας τάξεως (Ordnungspolizei)] να περικυκλωθεί το γκέτο. Ώρα 5 ανακοινώθηκε στον πρόεδρο της εβραϊκής κοινότητας, ότι όλοι οι Εβραίοι όφειλαν εντός τριών ωρών να παρουσιαστούν στους προβλεφθέντες χώρους προκειμένου να εκτοπισθούν. Ώρα 10 μεταφέρθηκαν 1.725 Εβραίοι στα Τρίκαλα. Έπιπλα και τρόφιμα από τα εγκαταλελειμμένα σπίτια παραδόθηκαν στις ελληνικές αρχές για να μοιραστούν στον πληθυσμό. «Σκοπός αυτής της γενναιοδωρίας ήταν η πρόληψη προπαγάνδας από μέρους των (φιλοκομμουνιστών) αντιστασιακών του ΕΑΜ.» Από μέρους του (εθνικιστικού, αντικομμουνιστικού) ΕΔΕΣ είχε ληφθεί, σύμφωνα με την αναφορά, “πλήρης συναίνεση”.» (γερμανικά: «”Seitens der (nationalistischen, antikommunistischen) EDES“ habe man ”volle Zustimmung“ erhalten.») Με τις συλλήψεις του Μαρτίου πραγματοποιήθηκαν 5.400 εκτοπίσεις Εβραίων.»
Αυτά αναφέρονται στο βιβλίο του Ράουλ Χίλμπεργκ Η Εξόντωση των Ευρωπαίων Εβραίων (Raul Hilberg Die Vernichtung der europäischen Juden, αναθεωρημένη και συμπληρωμένη γερμανική έκδοση Fischer, Frankfurt am Main 1990), που είναι ίσως το σημαντικότερο, συστηματικότερο και πληρέστερο έργο για το Ολοκαύτωμα. Ο Ενεπεκίδης αποδίδει στα ελληνικά αυτή τη φράση έτσι: «Από τους κύκλους του ΕΔΕΣ ακούεται μόνον πλήρης επιδοκιμασία.» (Πολυχρόνης Κ. Ενεπεκίδης, το Ολοκαύτωμα των Εβραίων της Ελλάδος 1941-1944, Βιβλιοπωλείον της «Εστίας», Αθήναι 1996, σ. 159.) Η περικοπή από την αναφορά του Γερμανού μυστικού αστυνομικού για τη στάση του ΕΔΕΣ στα Ιωάννινα αναφέρεται σε όλες τις από το έτος 1961 (αμερικανικές, αγγλικές και γερμανικές) εκδόσεις του μνημειώδους και πολύ γνωστού βιβλίου του Hilberg (στην τελευταία γερμανική έκδοση του 1990, σ. 750 και υποσημ. 1192), ο οποίος δεν αμελούσε να κάνει διορθώσεις και συμπληρώσεις όποτε προέκυπταν νέα στοιχεία. Από ό,τι γνωρίζω δεν απευθύνθηκε κανείς μέχρι τώρα είτε στον συγγραφέα είτε στους διαφόρους εκδότες του για να αμφισβητήσει το αναφερθέν σημείο, που παραπέμπει στα αρχεία της Νυρεμβέργης. Γνωρίζοντας την περίπτωση των Ιωαννίνων η Χάνα Άρεντ έγραψε: «Ο ελληνικός πληθυσμός ήταν στην καλύτερη περίπτωση αδιάφορος, και μερικές ανταρτικές ομάδες “ενέκριναν” μάλιστα τις εκτοπίσεις» (Hannah Arendt, Eichmann in Jerusalem, Piper Verlag, München 1986).
Εντούτοις αναφέρονται σημαντικές πρωτοβουλίες του ΕΔΕΣ της Αθήνας, με επικεφαλής τον γιατρό Πάνο Μαχαίρα, που με διαφόρους τρόπους, και σε συνεργασία με αστυνομικούς που εξέδιδαν ταυτότητες αντικαθιστώντας τα εβραϊκά ονόματα με χριστιανικά, συνέβαλαν στη διάσωση Εβραίων.
So after thinking about it maybe it wasn’t such a bad person that wise guy shouting the compliment towards jews, czechs and chams since it brought up some stuff which I didn’t know about – so thanks again LAOS!
Abravanel, the Blog 
Demetris said
What happened to the Chams was ethnic cleansing, instigated by the British Col. Woodhouse of the Allied command as the allies had orchestrated the forcible transfer of 12 millioin ethnic Germans from various countries in Europe at the closing stages of WWII.
What happened to the Greeks in Asia Minor was genocide as recently recognised by the International Association of Genocide Scholars.
Get your facts straight before making such ill-informed, offensive and anti-hellenic assertions in the future. And you had the gall to close with this «;-)». Pathetic.
Abravanel said
Coming from you I should consider it a compliment. And since you are keen to recognize that the chams were ethnically cleansed, have the courage to accept that Greece’s responsible and not somebody’s else.
Demetris said
Except Greece isn’t responsible. If you weren’t an antihellenist bigot you wouldn’t lap up the opportunity to blame Greece for something she didn’t do. The operation was directed by the Allied command in association with local right-wing resistance group EDES. The Greek government had no involvement either in ordering or carrying out the cleansing operations. It’s only responsibility lies in not recognizing the events post facto. Greece wasn’t responsible for the cleansing of 12 million Germans that happened at the same time either. The operations against the Chams were part of the same plan by the British and Americans, the first of whom are now the ones that promote this particular issue in a display of hypocricy only matched by you.
Ethnic cleansing and genocide are not the same thing and only an antihellenist like you would conflate the two in order to trivialize the suffering of the Greeks, whom you despize.
Kostas said
It is clear that this guy (Abravanel) despises Greeks and his only motivation is to belittle and humiliate us with his sophistry and distortions.
Abravanel said
You evade taxes, you vote for corrupt politicians, you perpetuate a false image of our history and then you call me «antihellenist»? Personally I have a feeling that I do more for our country with this blog than you would do in your lifetime.
Unfortunately for you jews were here before your ideology was born and shall continue to do in the future…so keep on loving me my loving compatriots cause I’m not going anywhere and I am geared towards making Greece a better place for all us greeks including you!
abravanel, your saviour
asdfghj said
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in that case the greeks of Asia Minor were justly evicted by Turkey in 1923 since they too were collaborators with an invading force.
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They were exchanged with the Turks living in Greece, actually.
Demetris said
Pathetic. Abravnel can’t reply to the points I raised and tries to shift the subject to obfuscate his venal hatred of all things Greek.
You evade taxes, you vote for corrupt politicians, you perpetuate a false image of our history and then you call me “antihellenist”?
Except that is obviously too tall an order for the poor guy. So, so lame. This is the standard parrot like mandra of the Greek left, Greeks are not perfect (unlike Jews asa abravnel implies) ergo it’s open season on the lot of them by every barbaros out there. Think again barbarian. This country was built by Greeks when your spanish speaking Jew ancestors were planning the autonomy of Thessalonica. Happily you lost and have been seething ever since the city was reclaimed by its original founders.
As for the population exchange, it is just plain wrong. The vast majority of the Greeks (1.2 millioin out of an eventaul total of 1.5 million) were allready ethnically cleanesed from Turkey and placed in refugee camps in Greece by the time the Treaty of Lausanne was signed in 1923. The Treaty simply allowed Turkey to bury the genocide and ethnic cleansing issue under the, then respectable, facade of population transfer and be able to point to the half a million Muslims removed from Greece as a justification for its actions.
poutses_mple said
abravel I just cummed Jehovas’ face. He swallowed like a real bitch he is!!!
Μόλις γάμησα τον Γιαχβέ! Το στόμα του κατάπινε ακατάπαυστα!!! Μπράβο βρε οβραίοι! Καλός τσιμπουκαράς ο θεός σας και ας είναι και σαυρογενής!!!
Η υποστήριξη των απανταχού εβραίων προς τους αδερφους τους τούρκους και αλβανούς πρέπει να είναι σίγουρη! Οι σημερινοί εβραίοι είναι στην πραγματικότητα χαζάροι, ταταρομογγόλοι στην ουσία και έτσι έχουν φυλετικούς δεσμούς (αλλά και δεσμούς πολιτιστικούς) με τους αλβανούς και τους τούρκους. Αλήθεια κ. αμπραβελ θα μας πείτε για το πρώτο Ολοκαύτωμα, την σφαγή των Φιλισταίων από του σιωνιστές βοσκούς του ισραέλ;
Sky said
Απορώ γιατί δεν έχεις βάλει moderation με κάτι ρεζίλια σαν τον από πάνω. Ξέρεις, η βλακεία είναι το καλύτερο υπόστρωμα για την ανάπτυξη του μίσους και ο από πάνω (poutses_mple δηλώνει) το αποδεικνύει περίτρανα.
Abravanel said
I prefer that it’s obvious with what trash we all have to deal with. I’ve heard and dealt with worse than these brainless compatriots who resort to name-calling as if we were small kids. :)
By the way a small reminder:
When St.Paul came to Greece he chose to come and speak to the jewish greeks that were already present as a community in Salonica. He preached in the Etz Hayim Synagogue for 3 consecutive Shabbaths and then went on to the rest of Greece and then wrote his famous epistoles to the thessalonicean jews…500 years before the sefardic jews arrived and before even the Byzantine Empire was founded. Remember that my loving compatriot. ;)
Diamandis said
Hey guys. My name is Diamandis and I just wanted to say something…
From an early age I had an a calling for learning. I read what ever came to me and I loved it. But about the year of 16 I read a book called «Omas Epsillon» (and many more books followed) by an author called Keramidas. And what wasn’t in there. Conspiracies, ancient knowledge and cryptographic messages for the future. And of course praise for the Greeks. What else a 16teen year old boy needed? Well…hating the Jews. Thank God for me at the age 18, my logic came back. I cached my self meeting a person for the first time and checking if his ear lobes where round enough to be a pure Greek and more things like that. I stopped and though «Wait…what the hell am I doing? I don’t even know the guy, I’m going to hate him cause his ears aren’t round enough? Well…THAT’S stupid!!!». My hatred for everything Jewish was harder to be reason with. I have been brainwashed to think that behind everything bad happened in this country, it was made by the Jews. So I stopped and I though: «What I really know about them? ,Nothing. Have I meet any Jew?,No… So I started searching and I found out that from ancient times the Jewish community was a part of Greece! In the most sacred religious place for the Ancient Greeks and a center af the Aegean routes, the island of Dilos, they had build even a synagogue. That means they were welcomed and respected back then. The ruins of that temple can be found even now. So why aren’t respected now? The answer is simple. Racism. People start using you logic! Stupidity must be stopped…
Abravanel said
Indeed, a thing that is easily overseen is the fact that there is a Jewish Community in Greece since ancient times. Even Apostle Paul came to Thessaloniki and Veria to speak to the jewish communities there and preached in the Etz Hayim Synagogue of Thessaloniki for three consecutive Saturdays.
It is convenient to remember only the massive immigration of the spanish speaking jews but truth is that jewish presence is ancient. Let’s also remember of the massive partecipation of the jewish community in the WW2 with 12000 soldiers and M.Frizis being the first, (or second some claim), officer to die in combat. Also the Community of Serres heroically refused to cooperate with the bulgarians, only to perish afterwards.
Theoprovlitos said
It must be clarified whether being a Jew is an ethnic or a religious characteristic.
I suppose that a Christian Orthodox Russian who came to Greece 1400 years later than the Orthodox Greeks cannot be related to the Greeks just because he is Orthodox.
In the same way the Spanish-speaking Jews who came from Spain, by no means can be related to the Greek-speaking Jews of the Ancient Synagogues with whom they didn’t even speak the same language nor did they share the same philosophy just becasue of their (former) faith.
The body of the Ancient Hellenistic Jews developed (and NOT converted) their faith into Orthodox Christianity, which is the natural evolution of the Jewish faith, since we are talking about the Jewish Messiah. In case the statements of Pagan and Nazi Greeks who recently “accuse” our Orthodox Christian Faith as «Jewish» are not enough, let me add on this the opinion of a Pentecostal Christian Finnish friend who when he visited an Orthodox Church in Greece, he straight away noticed that in reality we have evolved the Jewish worship into Christianity, unlike the protestant churches that rejected this tradition.
Under this point of view, yes I am a Christian Jewish by faith and who knows whether I also am by blood if I could follow my blood line 2000 years back.
The passion of the Greek Orthodox Christians for their faith – which is non-existent in other nations – can only prove one thing: That the Jewish background of their faith submits them either to suffer for it, or to become hostile against however tries to make them lose it.
Under this perspective, no wander this prejudice against the new-comers, non-Greek-speaking Jews from Spain who perfectly collaborated with the tyrant Muslim Ottomans while the Christian element was suffering in his own homeland. Do you expect the Greeks to look in a good manner any invaders (no matter peaceful ones) who gained privileges by the tyrants while themselves were suffering?
I must say that as a Jew, your openly taking the side of the Muslim Chams against your fellow Greeks and your homeland (?) fully re-justifies the prejudice of the Christian Greeks against the Jews.
Your statement of making a distinction between the good Chams and the bad Chams during wartime and while the country was being attracted by the fascists is (forgive me) ridiculous. It is as if when we would see a German during the war looking for a Jew to arrest we would first have to find out whether this German was a good one or a Nazi, before trying to hide him.
I wander if you would feel happier if the Chams would have stayed in Greece and would have been used by the Germans to send the Jews in concentration camps. After all, the Chams are in any case infamous for doing all the “dirty job” of massacres during Turkish occupation.
Should I be tempted to say “pity they were deported”, if 60 years later there would be a fellow Greek Jew taking the side of a pro-Nazi and pro-Turkish tribe against the country he is living in. And because I happen to know in person several Jews that were saved by Greeks, I should say that your statements insult those who risked their lives to save your parents’ fellow Jewish citizens while your fellow Chams were supporting the Nazis.
Abravanel said
A member of my family used to say that if all the ones claiming that they saved jews during the war said the truth, then there should have been 10 times the number of jews after the war than before the war.
Altough I feel it’s a waste of time talking to a person claiming that jews today control the world politically and economically I’d like to clear some things:
1. The Romaniote, the greek speaking jews, were jews, period. They were exactly the same religion as the shefardic jews that arrived from spain.
2. It is evident that you have no knowledge of genetics. It is impossible to find a bloodline in any case.
3. There are other nations much more passionate about their faith, eg the Poles are much more devout than your average greek. Ideally I’d also present orthodox jews (haredi) or islamists, to whom you’d pale in comparison.
4. Jews fought in the 1897, 1912, 1913, 1917 wars as an integral part of the greek army. In WW2 more than 20.000 soldiers were jewish and the first, (some claim second), high ranking officer to fall in combat was jewish. Why there is prejudice now?
5. Chams were persecute before WW2. WW2 provided only the occasion to kick them out. I do not support the choices of a considerable part of the cham community but a great number of greeks made the same choices then but nobody kicked them out. Each greek citizen after the war should have faced the Justice for his crimes and if found guilty be sentenced according to the Law; every other action is simply unjustifiable, morally and legally.
By the way please be accurate: say «pity that were exterminated» and not use euphemisms.
Theoprovlitos said
What would you say if I do know some JEWS who have been actually saved by Greeks and not some Greeks who claim that they did so?
And what would you say if my late uncle Haralambos from Volos has been arrested by the Nazis with his son John, because he was giving his services as a doctor to “those that he shouldn’t”.
After a month imprisoned in Volos he was executed, while his son has been deported to concentration camp in Germany where from he survived when the war was over.
Ungratefulness to some people who risked or even lost their life in order to save others brings disgrace.
1 The Romaniote, the Greek speaking Jews, WERE Jews as you wrote. Now they are living as Christian Orthodox Jews among us. Accepting Christ as the Messiah doesn’t make anyone stop being a Jew. On the contrary it is the ethnic Greeks that have been converted to the Jewish faith. Ask the Greek neo-pagans and Neo-Nazis for confirmation, who deeply hate the Orthodox Church as Jewish.
2 Am I the one who has no knowledge of genetics? I am afraid the Jewish owned national Geographic disagrees with you and encourages everyone to participate in their research about the traces of human race back in history through DNA tests. It also advertises Americans to discover their roots through this research.
3. “than YOUR average Greek?” May I suppose that you exclude yourself considering him a foreigner as a Jew?
The Orthodox Jews, (many of whom are against the Zionist lobby), are Jews. So what’s the difference? As to Islamists they are infamous for their aggressiveness that comes from their faith and not as victims who suffer for it. It does make a huge difference.
4. The fact that Jews fought in the 1897, 1912, 1913, 1917 wars as an integral part of the Greek army, intergrades them fully in the Greek society. Prejudice now exists because there are blogs who are defending Kissinger or who fight for the rights of pro-Nazi ethnic groups against peace and against their fellow citizens and promote instability in the area.
5. Are you telling me that during those 400 years of the Turkish occupation the Muslim Chams were persecuted? And how come the Christian orthodox who suffered a great deal from them share a different opinion? And historical elements proof their dark role in massacres in genocides against the Christians? Haven’t you ever heard of the Tourkalbanoi who devastated entire areas as far as the Peoloponnese?. Even the Sultan himself was amazed by their violence because uncontrolable and violent as they were, they were extinguishing population in entire areas and destroying the natural resources where from he could collect taxes.
Not to mention the Arberesh, the Christian Albanians who in order to save themselves from the rage of the Muslim converts fled to Southern Italy.
And how come those Chams that «were persecuted by the Greeks» were not deported during the 1923 population exchange that obliged ALL Muslims leave the country and move to Turkey no matter their ethnic background?
I am getting confused. Are you a pro-Nazi and a pro-terror Muslim nation? In this case should I reconsider my beliefs and consider Muslim terrorists and Hammas in general as an oppressed minority whose rights are being violated by the Jews? Is this what are you trying to tell the world?
Abravanel said
I’m grateful to him, (if the story is true) and not to you that I consider a bigotted antisemite who has lives in a parallel world made of conspiracy theories. That’s the thing you fanatics keep forgetting, individual responsability: in my family there were christian greeks that helped out my family and there were christian greeks that collaborated with the germans and informed them about them. I’ve never said aything in the lines of christian greeks helping or not helping someone during the Holocaust – always talking about specific persons or groups.
1. You are of limited cognitive abilities. Romaniote Jews are of jewish religion today; the Jewish Community of Ioannina is romaniote, the synagogue of Athens is considered romaniote though the Community isn’t of course and there is even a Romaniote congregation in New York (Kehila Kedosha Janina link on the right sidebar).
2. Yes you have absolutely no knowledge of genetics except of what you read in sites of dubious mental health. Also if National Geographic is jewish or not has the same valence as if flies can do tap dancing while juggling with 5 multi colored balls.
3. First, «your» is an english expression. Second, I do exclude myself since I’m not observing.
4. You are of limited cognitive abilities. I’ve never defended Kissinger in the article and you fail again to quote a single line that I’m doing so, other than he’s not that dumb to give away himself.
5. Chams faced administrative persecution, (ie no violence involved), from 1922 till 1945. Chams were not persecuted by greeks prior to 1923 because there was no trouble between the communities and ,small detail, they did not belong to the Greek State. In 1923 Chams were not deported because the forefather of the UN judged that their deportation was illegal according to the Treaty of Lausanne because it specified the deportation of all turks and not of all muslims.
Yeah, go tell your tenths of jewish friends that you found a dangerous antisemite on the web, a self hating jew, and pass them my address. I’m glad they’d be relieved to hear that they have you defending the greek jewish community!
Theoprovlitos said
Are you then telling me that when Apostle Paul preached in the Synagogues not even one Jew accepted Christ as the Messiah? And how about the Hellenistic Jews in Jerusalem with names as Andrew, Philip etc? It is obvious that the majority of the Jews of Classical Greece became Christian. To whom was then Paul writting his Episles? Otherwise there is not a way to explain why the Greek Orthodox Church has SO MANY Jewish elements that even an atheist or a blind would notice.
My intention is not to proof a historical gap between the Jews from Spain are those of Classical Greece in order to present the first as intruders. But on the contrary present the orthodox Church as a continuation of the Jewish faith and Jewish element of Greece.
What I am saying is that if there is a difference between Israelites and Greek Orthodox it is ONLY theological and not ethnic. Some accepted Christ while some didn’t. Where do you see antisemitism in that? Your attitude is as strange as if the Grecophones of Calabria in Italy would claim that they are of Greek origin and they Greeks would say no you aren’t.
Ok Lets put it this way. Why am I the one who lives in consipracy theories and you are not the one who believes that whoever approches you is a racist, an antisemitic etc. Are you sure you don’t see enemies everywhere?
And a question: if I admit that the Greeks did geonicide against the Muslim Chams just to make you happy are you going to admit that the Chams have been for centuries specialists in genocides and massacres? And that members of the Jewish community are also guilty for crimes? Or the Jews are the sinless nation? It seems to be the only nation in the world with so many… suffering tycoons.
And what is your opinion about the human rights of the Greeks in Albania? Or are you exclusively interested about anything that would harm Greece and cause further destabilization?
Don’t you see that in times of crisis your zeal to present those who have been murderers for 400 years and Nazi collaborators during the WWII is a hostile attitude against the nation and the country you are living in?
If murderers have human rights then so does the Hamas and the suicide bombers. Or you just can see the similarities?
I will certainly tell my Finnish-Jewish friend in Theseion Kati Mevorah when I visit for coffee, that there is a strange guy in the internet working hard to destabilize the area and put everyone into trouble. Also he is provoking ultra-nationalists to become anti Jews by giving them hints and proofs to believe what they want to believe.
Frankly, I can’t see any of my Jewish friends obsessed that whoever tells them good morning or has an open discussion with them or whoever is against the huge American-Jewish interests is Antisemitic.
Change your atitude. If there is one person between us who puts the Jewish Greeks at risk it is certainly not me. I hope you do understand the difference between an anti-racist Jew and a anti-Greek racist. I was just hoping that you would be the first.
Abravanel said
As I said, you are of limited cognitive abilities and a blatant antisemite.
Theoprovlitos said
Whatever you say…
However, I have the impression that taking just a quote from someone’s words out of an entire paragraph is not that democratic. Or is it?
Anyway, everyone choses his friends and his enemies. And if he hasn’t any, he can always make them up just to keep himself busy.
Shalom
Drini said
It is true that Greece is the only country where Jews were ruonded up by Nazis and a active participating role has played Greek Byzantine Church with the Ralisi government in Athens.It was part of a biger picture were Greeks were preparing the ground for the disapperance of other minorities such as Chamis ,Maqedonians,Bulgars and Turks in later years.
History has to be corrected.
Xenos said
What is so remarkable is that Greeks know so little of their own history, and (even more remarkable) actually promote false histories while mocking others’ accounts. The persecution of the Chams is now fairly well documented, and goes back to the Greek occupation of what is now northern Greece after the Balkan Wars. It reached an initial high point during the Exchange of Populations, when Greece came into conflict with the League of Nations over its forcible removal of Albanian-speaking Chams to Turkey, got worse over the following decades, and culiminated in several massacres of Cham civilians toward the end of WWII by Greek unofficial military forces.
We can therefore speak of a sustained attack on the rights of the Cham throughout the entire history of Greek management of the territory. This was part of the ethno-national cleansing of Greece, massively aided by the 1923 Population Exchange.
By the way, I have not read so much crap and lies about this period as from some of the above commentators: their level of ignorance and insistence on propaganda is disgraceful. There is plenty of good scholarship on the population exchange and the events preceding it in Asia Minor and none of it backs up the idea of genocide by the Turks. Greeks were just as responsible for the bloody mess as Turks — arguably, more so, since Greece invaded and attacked the Turks in Asia Minor with the sole intent of killing and conquering.
Abravanel said
@ Drini
This is not true; there was no generalized plan to help the nazis. In other areas their christian population excelled in helping their jewish compatriots including the Church like the Metropolite, Mayor and people of Zante. The Archbishop Damaskinos was an example of true courage and regarded the extermination of jews as a tragedy that regarded Greece. Others like the civil authorities of Corfu and Thessaloniki were all too eager to collaborate with the germans and Churches like the one of Thessaloniki profited from looted jewish property.
Historically speaking this is incorrect. First of all the nazi Germany exterminated the jews, aided by Italy and especially Bulgaria – this has nothing to do with the ethnic minorities that Greece had, since jews are a religious minority with no ethnic claims.
History indeed needs to be corrected but that does not mean we have simply to change the story and greek christians become the «bad guys».
@ Xenos
Although Greece has legally recognized the term «genocide» applied to massacres perpetrated against civilians of greek origin and ottoman citinzeship of Asia Minor I concur that this is not true. Contemporaneously I disagree that Greece invaded modern Turkey (beyond the demarcation lines that international agreements had drawn) only to kill and conquer. You should know better than oversimplifying history like that.
Βεζυρης said
Η παρουσία ελληνικών δυνάμεων στην Οθωμανική αυτοκρατορία (και η βοήθεια που τους παρείχαν οι ντόπιοι Έλληνες) το ’20 ήταν νόμιμη, όσο γνωρίζω. Αυτό φυσικά δεν αναιρεί πολλά από τα γεγονότα που συνέβησαν αλλά άποψη μου είναι ότι στα γεγονότα του ’20 η ελληνική πλευρά φέρθηκε γενικά καλύτερα απ’ότι η τουρκική (σε αντίθεση π.χ. με το μακεδονικό αγώνα όπου δε θα ήθελα ποτέ να ανακηρύξω κάποια «πλευρά» ως ηθικά ευπρεπέστερη).
Η αντίληψη της ελληνικής ιστορίας που έχουν άτομα όπως ο Xenos και ο (Αλβανός) Drini είναι τόσο στρεβλή όσο και η «επίσημη» ελληνική.
Ο Δημήτρης, πέρα από το -επιτηδευμένο- ύφος του περι βαρβάρων και ανθελλήνων, παρέθεσε ορισμένα σωστά στοιχεία τα οποία δυστυχώς έμειναν ασχολίαστα. Και, ειλικρινά, δε νομίζω ότι απαραίτητα φοροδιαφεύγει.