Abravanel, the Blog

Jewish life and not only in Greece / Εβραϊκή ζωή και όχι μόνο στην Ελλάδα

The unchallenged perpetuation of stupidity

Posted by Abravanel, the Blog στο 10/04/2008

Reader Discretion is advised – extreme mambo jumbo conspiracy theories following.

Ο ελληνικός λαός είναι δυσκολοκυβέρνητος και γι’ αυτό πρέπει να τον πλήξουμε βαθιά στις πολιτισμικές του ρίζες. Τότε ίσως συνετισθεί. Εννοώ, δηλαδή, να πλήξουμε τη γλώσσα, τη θρησκεία, τα πνευματικά και ιστορικά του αποθέματα, ώστε να εξουδετερώσουμε κάθε δυνατότητά του να αναπτυχθεί, να διακριθεί, να επικρατήσει, για να μη μας παρενοχλεί στα Βαλκάνια, να μη μας παρενοχλεί στην Ανατολική Μεσόγειο, στη Μέση Ανατολή, σε όλη αυτή τη νευραλγική περιοχή μεγάλης στρατηγικής σημασίας για μας, για την πολιτική των ΗΠΑ
Χένρυ Κίσσινγκερ

The Greek people are difficult to govern and for this reason we must attack it’s cultural roots. Maybe then they’re going to come to their senses. I mean, we should aim to destroy their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish, to dominate, to seize to harass us in the Balcans, to seize to harass us in the Eastern Mediterranean, in the Middle East, this whole neuralgic region of great strategic importance to us, to the US policy.
Henry Kissinger

http://img.pathfinder.gr/clubs/images/6/165806/22.jpg Lakis Lazopoulos is a famous greek comedian with a long history of successful TV shows. Nowadays he’s responsible for the stand-up show of «Al Tsadiri News» where he satirizes the (some) politicians, the greek star system and various international events. Sometimes makes some good points but usually he slides towards populism, narcissism and nationalism that is majoritarian in the Greek Left, (I don’t even mention the Right as I feel that they’re ex officio nationalists in Greece). Still he enjoys a wide support from greek audience and his show is consistently the most successful one in greek TV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_KissingerIn his latest show he recited the excerpt above and attributed it to Henry Kissinger, former chief of the US State Department. This invented excerpt, known as «The Kissinger Statement», holds a special place in the heart of greek nationalists and devotees to conspiracy theories. It serves as a sign of US evilness and jewish/ zionist’s etternal effort to hurt Greece, (as Kissinger is of jewish origins). These people are neither a small, nor are a marginal minority and the range of people who endorse the statement above as authentic is impressive: from the prominent Greek Communist Party parliamentary L.Kanelli, to other PM’s like S.Papathemelis, to the former Greek President of Republic C.Sartzetakis ! There have been a couple of articles stating the inauthenticity of the speech and H.Kissinger office has denied it; even the US Embassy has protested since some claimed that it was a non-paper deriving the Clinton/ Simitis talks in 1997. Still these articles have been widely ignored and scores of newspapers have reprinted it, hundreds of articles mention it and it often appears during TV shows and on the internet.

For those interested there is an excellent article by Ios, (here) which recounts the various aspects of this story when it re-surfaced in 1997. I’ll limit myself in mentioning that each time the statement appears to have been made at different dates, on different media and nobody has ever proved that the aforementioned statement did ever actually appear on any media; unarguable an invented story. I.Pretenderis in an article gives his interpretation of the obsession of the Greek Right and Left with the conspiracy theories and in particular the Kissinger Statement. I quote some interesting passages from his article that can be found here, since I agree with many of his conclusions:

Why so many good people in Greece feel that they live in a state of generalised and unsubstantiated conspiracy against their national identity? (…)
The react because the school of thought they express cannot exist without fear, without threat, without the unacknowledged admission of an ongoing conspiracy; a conspiracy that justifies the inward and defensive stance they hold. They defend themselves because somebody threatens them, threatens them insidiously, conspiratorially and without pause. (…)
Maybe for this the various conspiracy theories are mobilitated: not only as a threat towards all but also as an interpretation mechanism of a change that some cannot comprehend and thus accept.

I should also add that greek writer Dimitris Sarantakos has claimed that the Kissinger Statement is only an adaptation of Lord Palmerston’s speech regarding the Pacifico Incident in 1850. For the sake of honesty I must admit that the only speech I now of who was his Civis Romanus Sum speech where his makes no similar statements. Still as others have pointed out it would be blatantly foolish of H.Kissinger to have a secret plan against Greece and then go on and declare it to the delight of the whole world. In any case I rely the logic of the reader as not to have to prove how blatant or stupid this lie is; plus I remind again that no media that are reputed to have published it ever actually did.

Normally I wouldn’t have dealt with conspiracy theories which seem to flourish under the greek sun but having them repeated in the most successful show of greek TV is kind of disturbing. This rumor, as I said, is replayed each time one wishes to either show how US hates Greece, or the international Judaism through prominent Jews aims to destroy Greece. It’s interesting to see how a Left-oriented public figure as Lazopoulos slides towards nationalism and adopts an anti-american/ anti-jewish rhetoric which would find eager supporters among the voters of the extreme-right and racist party of LAOS. For me it’s only yet another sign of the red/black informal alliance which dominates the cultural landscape of Greece and has yet to find a worthy adversary.

This lack of contradiction to the endemic populism/ nationalism is what I find unacceptable. Lazopoulos can say pigs fly and ask us to believe him. What I cannot understand is how various reporters and politicians have no trouble spending litres of ink, (or keystrokes), to comment on one or another aspect of his show but fail to comment on the nationalism which is characteristic in his shows as the Theodorakis Letter nationalistic delirium proves, (blog post by j95). I mention journalists and politicians but of course this failure also holds true for the greek society, that feeds on these conspiracy theories where americans and jews are the unchallenged protagonists. It would not be untrue to ask oneself if this unopposed propagation of stupidity is responsible for making the blatantly racist views of LAOS becoming mainstream, for the public reward of anachronistic politicians in al political parties and allowing persons like Liakopoulos to become household names. Stupidity is not innocent and I agree that goes hand in hand with it’s partners: fear, ignorance and habit; it should not go unchallenged unless we want one day to be swallowed by it.

May the virtuous El of Liakopoulos protect us and help us ward off further insults to our good sense and save us from Saviours who think that they know more…

PS. Read more in greek in Wolf’s Lair Abyss and Μπουκάλια στο Πέλαγος. Also Roides has written an article on Yannaras, a greek journalist which despite the continuous proofs against the authenticity of the Kissinger Statement continues to mention it.

27 Σχόλια to “The unchallenged perpetuation of stupidity”

  1. Abravanel said

    I edited the information on Sarandakos as to clarify that these were the views of his father and not of Nikos Sarandakos, the linguist.

    Also another article can be found here -> http://www.sarantakos.com/language/kissinger.html

  2. roidis said

    το παράδειγμα Λαζόπουλος αποδεικνύει το βάθος της σύγχυσης που επικρατεί σε μεγάλα στρώματα του πληθυσμού ανεξαρτήτως πεποιθήσεων. Τα σύνορα μεταξύ αλήθειας-αληθοφάνειας και εθνικού-εθνικιστικού δυστυχώς θέλει γνώσεις για να τα διακρίνεις, και ο περισσότερος κόσμος δεν έχει, εκτός των άλλων, και το χρόνο…

    Γι αυτό χρειάζεται υπομονή και ορισμένες φορές -όχι πάντα- κατανόηση.

  3. linktothepast said

    Πολύ ενδιαφέρον το άρθρο σου. Δεν ήξερα ότι τη εν λόγω δήλωση πρωτοπλάσαρε στα media το ΚΚΕ, και μάλιστα βασίστηκε και καλά σε τουρκική εφημερίδα, η οποία εξαφανίστηκε κάπου στην μετάφραση(και από πότε οι Τούρκοι γράφουν αλήθειες για τους Έλληνες άλλωστε). ΚΚΕ και αντιαμερικανισμός πάνε πακέτο έτσι και αλλιώς. Μου φαινόταν ανέκαθεν κάτι πολύ βαρύ για να το πει κάποιος έτσι φαρδιά χοντρά και ανόητα, αλλά ομολογώ πως δεν το έψαξα για τον ακριβώς παραπάνω λόγο. Και το έδαφος για αντιαμερικανισμό είναι πρόσφορο μετά την ευνοϊκή στάση των ΗΠΑ απέναντι στα Σκόπια, Θεσσαλονικιός είσαι έτσι και αλλιώς όπως και εγώ και πιστεύω κάτι καταλαβαίνεις. Πρέπει τώρα κάποιος να βγει δημόσια και να πει την αλήθεια για την εν λόγω φράση, γιατί καλώς ή κακώς ζημιά έγινε μετά και από αυτό που έκανε ο κύριος Λαζόπουλος. Μάλιστα κάποιος θα πρέπει να ενημερώσει τον κύριο Λαζόπουλο και να ανακαλέσει, αυτό θα ήταν το καλύτερο. Θέλω να πιστεύω ότι δεν το έκανε εσκεμμένα αλλά από άγνοια. Βέβαια ψέματα και προβοκάτσια έχουν χρησιμοποιήσει πολλοί λαοί, όπως και οι Αμερικανοί για τον πόλεμο στο Ιράκ. Εμείς όμως οφείλουμε να κοιτάμε τα του οίκου μας. Α και για το άλλο σχόλιο που έγραψα, θα μπορούσες να αντικαταστήσεις την λέξη μαλακίες με την λέξη ανοησίες αν είναι να το αναδημοσιεύσεις (την χρησιμοποίησα εν βρασμώ ψυχής, θυμώνω όταν βλέπω τέτοια πράγματα από συμπατριώτες μου, και δεν είμαι και ιδιαίτερα περήφανος για την χρήση της). Ευχαριστώ.

  4. Abravanel said

    @ roides: Δεν ειναι θεμα χρονου/θπομονης αλλα και θελησης. Αν αυριο ολες οι εφημεριδες γραψουν οτι ηταν ψεμα και τα τηλεοπτικα δελτια ειδησεων επιβεβαιωσον την πλαστοτητα της δε νομιζω οτι θ΄αλλαξει κατι. Πιστευω οτι μονο ενα, εντυπωσιακα μικρο, κομματι του πληθυσμου θα την αποκηρυξει, ενω η πλειοψηφια θα συνεχισει να την πιστευει. Γιατι; Γιατι εχουμε εθιστει στις θεωριες συνωμοσιων, στην μετατοπιση των ευθυνων και επικρατει ενας ιδιορυθμος ολοκληρωτισμος στην σκεψη στην Ελλαδα.

    @ Linktothepast: για να ειμαστε ειλικρινεις, η φημη δεν ξεκινησε απο το ΚΚΕ αλλα κυκλοφορουσε χρονια. Ακομα και αν ο κ.Λαζοπουλος ανακαλουσε, δεν πιστευω οτι οι ιδιοι του οι τηλεθεατες θα τον πιστευαν, οπως ανεφερα πριν. Ο Πρετεντερης αναφερει στο αρθρο του το 1997:

    Παρά ταύτα, είς εκ των προαγωγών του εγγράφου ακούστηκε σε κανάλι να λέει: «Συζητάμε αν είναι πλαστό ή δεν είναι αντί να συζητάμε για το περιεχόμενό του, γι’ αυτά που λέει!». Κατ’ αυτόν, το περιεχόμενο τυγχάνει έγκυρο, ακόμη κι αν το έγγραφο είναι πλαστό. Θέμα λογικής και θράσους…

    Ακριβως τα ιδια διαβασα σε μια συζητηση που βρηκα οταν εκανα την ερευνα μου για το αρθρο! Οπως βλεπεις ο συνεπης συνωμοσιολογος δεν εχει αναγκη παρα μιας σπιθας και οπως ανεφερα στο σχολιο προς τον ροιδη πιο πανω, ειναι πολλοι οι λογοι που τον κανουν να προτιμα αυτη την εικονικη πραγματικοτητα:

    βρε χαφιεδες των φονιαδων γαμω το σπιτι σας…………….ακομη κι αν δεν το ειχε πει και ηταν ψεμα……ειναι ηλιου φαεινοτερον οτι αυτη η πολιτικη εφαρμοζεται εναντιον του ελληνισμου 8) …………
    θα με κανετε να γινω πολυ δεικτικος και να ανοιξω θεμα με τα εγκληματα του σιωνισμου (και των αμερικανων) ενανιον του ελληνισμου….και τοτε καθε κατεργαρης που γραφει εδω μεσα μαλακιες θα εξαφανιστει :evil: 8) ………
    http://www.phorum.gr/viewtopic.php?f=24&p=1074675#p1074610

    Παντως να προσθεσω οτι προσωπικα δεν συμφωνω με την, (μερικες φορες οπως βεβαια σημειωσε), κατανοηση του προτεινει ως αντιμετωπιση ο ροιδης αλλα και ουτε με πειθει ακριβως η αγνοια του Λαζοπουλου. Το πρωτον γιατι οπως ειπα θεωρω οτι η ανοησια δεν ειναι αθωα αλλα επικινδυνη σε ανθρωπους που εχουν τοση δυναμη. Το δευτερον γιατι ο Λαζοπουλος εχει ενα βεβαρυμένο παρελθον οσον αφορα τον εθνικισμο του.

  5. aj said

    Hey, this is a very interesting blog. I have never understood why Greeks have so much hostility towards Jews. What are the roots of this phenomenon? Is it the Chanukah story, or is it related to the Church, or is it a modern thing?

    I also find the history of Thesalonika Jews interesting, because my family were Ladino speakers (from Hebron).

  6. Abravanel said

    The level of greek hostility in absolute terms is not very high, much less than the hostility of eastern europeans like the Poles. What we do not have is a common acknowledgement of history and the lack of will today to fight antisemitism. It is puzzling because there are so few jews left that no rebound effect, national cause etc can explain it.

    I am not sure why this happens. Much is due to folk antisemitism which mainly has religious roots. Surely the compact mass of the jewish thessaloniceans which challenged the view of an ethnically/religiously homogeneous national state also didn’t help out. Still sometimes I feel that this isn’t enough to explain the current situation.

  7. TD said

    Abravanel-

    I have been perusing your blog. You make some excellent points. Are many/most Greeks anti-semites? Of course they are. But Greeks are tribalists and are also bigoted in so many countless ways, i.e. against the Turks, Muslims, Slavs, Roma, the villagers across the valley, Northern Greeks, etc.

    Is there a uniquely abhorrent quality to enmity against the Jews? Unquestionably so. Bigotries against other groups have fluctuated in history – but anti-Semitism counts centuries of uninterrupted hatred.

    My main comment is that we have to look FORWARD. Despite many setbacks, xenophobia and anti-Semitism are ebbing. “Globalization” is helping us understand ourselves and others better.

    I think your blog will be a lot more successful and reach more people if you modify your approach. Talk about the contributions of Greek Jews. Recognize any progress in Greek society. Talk about the past, but do not ruminate on it. And write in Greek.

    TD

    PS. Sorry about writing in English, but I do not have Greek font on this laptop.

  8. Η δήλωση του πρώην Υπουργού Εξωτερικών των ΗΠΑ Χένρι Κίσινγκερ, ο οποίος μιλώντας σε διεθνές Συνέδριο στο Παρίσι το 1992, είπε: «Η Ελλάδα έχει δίκιο για το όνομα. Το λέγω αυτό διότι γνωρίζω ιστορία, που δεν γνωρίζουν Αμερικανοί Υπουργοί και Αξιωματούχοι στην Ουάσιγκτον. Το ισχυρό όπλο της Ελλάδας είναι η Ιστορία. Οφείλω να δηλώσω ότι η Ελλάδα δεν έκανε χρήση του όπλου της, δηλαδή της Ιστορίας»

    Aυτό άραγε το είπε ή είναι κατασκευασμένο;

  9. Lazopoulos a «left-oriented» public figure? Yes, as much as Theodorakis can be considered «left-oriented» nowadays. The only thing these people believe in is cajoling the prejudices of the mob and playing to the gallery. You cannot become an entertainer of «national» stature in Greece if you are not ready to tirelessly flatter the ignorance and paranoia of the mass public.

    In fact I must say that the only public figure in Greece that has become prominent by attacking national and religious certainties (and a very talented humorist at that) is a blogger: Pitsirikos

  10. Abravanel said

    @ TD. You make interesting points and as I had said in another comment before, I’m in the proccess of writing a post on the subject of the actual extent of greek antisemitism and how the jewish community deals with it.

    @ σχολιαστής. Αυτή η δήλωση εμφανίζεται στον ιστότοπο ενός πρωην υπουργού και δεν γνωρίζω εαν πραγματικά πρόκειται για αληθινή ή όχι. Ετσι πως έχει διαψεύσει την δήλωση που αναφέρεται στο κείμενο, πιστεύω οτι δεν θα είχε πρόβλημα να επιβεβαιώσει ή να διαψεύσει ρην δήλωση που ανέφερες στο σχόλιο.

    @ Gay Super Hero, (great nick by the way lol)
    As Tsarouchis said: «in Greece you are what you declare. The fact is that the people who define themselves as «left» act like this, same goes with the parties of the left; while the Right does not object that the leftists are indeed Left. So the question if this is indeed the «left» is irrelevant since I think we can all agree that ideology is not immutable and changes with the passing of time, ergo this is the «left» today. Αθηναίος had a interesting post on the subject which i must find.

    In any case even pitsirikos is not my ideal of going «against the mainstream». He indeed goes against the current ideology in Greece in some matters, but in others he simply goes along with his audience providing the illusion of resistance. In other words, (and I’m not referring to pitsirikos now), it is different to quote Chomsky in the USA and different to quote him in Greece.
    The message doesn’t change but the contest yes. In the first case you indeed go against the mainstream and attack national certainties. On the other case you simply put asleep your conscience by pseudo-resisting to an imaginary mainstream while in fact you’re flattering your audience.

  11. Για να είμαστε ακριβείς, δεν την αναμετέδωσε όλο το ΚΚΕ αυτή την μπούρδα, που αποδίδεται στον Κίσινγκερ, αλλά η βουλευτίνα του Λιάνα Κανέλλη, μέσω του εθνικιστικού περιοδικού της «NEMECIC». Είπε και το ΚΚΕ να κάνει ανοίγματα σε γκλαμ περσόνες και ψώνισε από σβέρκο.
    Το ΚΚΕ έκανε, μέσω του ΠΑΜΕ, την άλλη βλακεία, να σκεπάσει με πανώ το μνημείο των Εβραίων της Θεσσαλονίκης, διαμαρτυρόμενο για … τις σφαγές του ισραηλινού στρατού στην Παλαιστίνη. Σαν να λέμε, να κάψει κάποιος το μνημείο των αγροτών στο Κιλελέρ, επειδή η ΔΕΛΤΑ ακρίβυνε το γάλα!

  12. Abravanel said

    Οντως, απλως κατ’εμε το ΚΚΕ ηξερε καλα τι ψωνισε και ηταν ακριβως αυτο που ηθελε.

    H Α.Παπαρηγα κατηγορει οτι οι ΗΠΑ και το Ισραηλ κρυβονται πισω απο τις βομβιστικες επιθεσεις σε συναγωγες της Κωσταντινουπολης.
    Χουρμουζιαζης υποστηριζει οτι οι εβραιοι ειναι πισω απο την 11/9

    Οσο για την πορεια του ΚΚΕ το 2006 δεν υπηρξε το προβλημα μονο η βεβηλωση του μνημειου, που καταλαβαινω μερικοι ισως να μην το βλεπουν καν ως βεβηλωση. Το γεγονος που διελυσε καθε υπονοια για τα κινητρα τους ηταν η πορεια την επομενη μερα κατα της Εβραικης Κοινοτητας και η πολιορκια των γραφειων της γιατι αυτη διαμαρτυρηθηκε για την βεβηλωση – τετοιες πορειες και τετοια ελλειψη αντιδρασεων ειχαμε χρονια να δουμε.

  13. Αναρωτιεμαι εαν υπαρχει καποιος λογος να αγιοποιησουμε οτιδηποτε το Εβραϊκό ως αθωο ακομα και οταν προφανεστατα δεν ειναι.

    Με έναν φιλο μου (μη Εβραίο) με τον οποιο εχουμε σχετικη διενεξη επ αυτου, δηλαδη οτι για καποιες ασχημιες πισω απο τις οποιες κρυβονται σαφεστατα σιωνιστικα ή εβραϊκα συμφεροντα δεν ευθυνεται ο καθε Εβραίος ή Ισραηλινός, εγω του αντιτείνω ότι βεβαιως και δεν ευθυνονται, αλλα δυστυχως εντος του Εβραϊσμου ΔΕΝ υπαρχουν φωνες οι οποιες να καταγγελουν τετοια φαινομενα γιατι δυστυχως βολευονται πισω απο αυτα.

    Η προσπαθεια σου λοιπον να αγιοποιησεις τον Κισιγκερ που αποσκοπεί; Χρειαζεται δηλαδη να εχει πει καποια πραγματα για να τεκμηριωθει ο σκοτεινος ρολος που έπαιξε σε βαρος της πατριδας μας (και θελω να πιστευω και πατριδας σου).

    Οι Ελληνες αν μη τι αλλο εχουν το θαρρος να αυτοκριτικαρονται να απομυθοποιουνται και να καταγγελουν τον ιδιο τους τον εαυτο οταν χρειαστει. Αυτο ειναι προφανες ακομα και από τον Λαζοπουλο ή την Κανελλη. Δεν εχω δει κανεναν Εβραιο να κανει το ιδιο. Δηλαδη ολοι οι αλλοι λαοι κανουν εγκληματα και ειναι ρατσιστες πλην των Εβραιων;

    Εγω πιστευω πως οταν υψωθουν περισσοτερες φωνές εβραίων εναντιον του μεγαλοεβραϊκου οικονομικου και πολιτικου λόμπυ που ελεγχει πια τα παντα και συνεπως ειναι υπευθυνο για την τραγικη πορεια της ανθρωποτητας ΤΟΤΕ μονο θα παψουν και οι εβραιοι να φοβουνται.

  14. Abravanel said

    Εεεμ, που ακριβώς αγιοποίησa τον Kissinger; Ξαναδιάβασα την ανάρτηση μου και δεν υπάρχει ούτε μια πρόταση που να αναφέρει τον οποιοδήποτε χαρακτηρισμό για το άτομο του πέρα του οτι δεν είναι, κατ΄εμέ ηλίθιος αρκετά για να αποκαλύψει ένα κρυφό σχέδιο. Μπορείς, σε παρακαλώ, να μου υποδείξεις που λοιπόν τον αγιοποιώ;

    Οι Ελληνες αν μη τι αλλο εχουν το θαρρος να αυτοκριτικαρονται να απομυθοποιουνται και να καταγγελουν τον ιδιο τους τον εαυτο οταν χρειαστει.

    Ζούμε σε άλλη χώρα – διαφωνώ μαζί σου.

    Αυτο ειναι προφανες ακομα και από τον Λαζοπουλο ή την Κανελλη. Δεν εχω δει κανεναν Εβραιο να κανει το ιδιο. Δηλαδη ολοι οι αλλοι λαοι κανουν εγκληματα και ειναι ρατσιστες πλην των Εβραιων;

    Ο Λαζόπουλος και η Κανέλλη χαιδεύουν τα αυτία των πελατών τους και διαιωνίζουν τους εθνικούς μύθους. Απο εκεί και πέρα οι εβραίοι έλληνες είναι το ίδιο ρατσιστές όπως οι χριστιανοί έλληνες, δεν έχουμε κάνει το εμβόλιο κατά του ρατσισμού.

    Εγω πιστευω πως οταν υψωθουν περισσοτερες φωνές εβραίων εναντιον του μεγαλοεβραϊκου οικονομικου και πολιτικου λόμπυ που ελεγχει πια τα παντα και συνεπως ειναι υπευθυνο για την τραγικη πορεια της ανθρωποτητας ΤΟΤΕ μονο θα παψουν και οι εβραιοι να φοβουνται.

    Συνεπής αντισημιτικός λόγος που εξηγεί την εθελοτυφλία σου πιο πριν.
    Αντε μη βάλω τον Matt να κλείσει το ιστολογιο σου.

  15. Δεν εχω καταλαβει ποια ακριβως ειναι η σκοπιμοτητα να υπεραμυνθεις του Κισιγκερ. Ειναι σαν να αρχισει καποιος να γραφει για τα καλα που προσεφερε η κυβερνηση Μουσολινι στην Ιταλια μονο και μονο για να του φτειαξω το image.

    Καλα με δουλευεις για τους Ελληνες. Talk Show και παραθυρα στα καναλια για το πως κριτικαρει μεχρις εξευτελισμου ο ενας τον αλλο δεν εχεις δει; Ο Λαζοπουλος αυτα που λεει στους Εβραιους αναφερεται; Η Κανελλη σε Ελληνες πολιτικους δεν τα χωνει; Οντως ζουμε σε αλλη χωρα. Η σατυρα και ο αυτοσαρκασμος των Ελληνων ουτε συγκρινεται με αλλων λαων. ΑΥΤΟ τουλαχιστον να το αναγνωρισεις.

    Ποιους ακριβως εννοεις πελατες μου; Τον καλυτερο μου φιλο και συμμαθητη μου στο Λυκειο Ραφαηλ Παριτση και τον αδελφο του Μιχαλη; Tον αλλο συμμαθητη μου Μεναχεμ Νααρ εναν εκ των δυο που εχω καποια επικοινωνια ακομα και που εχει παντρευτει και την κορη του ραβββινου της Συναγωγης των Αθηνων; Τον αλλο μου συμμαθητη τον Σαμπη τον Λεβη που καναμε και λιγο παρεα; Τον συναδελφο μου και φιλο μου από την διαφημιση Σολομων Μπαρκη; Η την Αμπραβανελ από την Μπενρουμπη οταν χειροζομουν κομματια της διαφημιστικης τους καμπανιας; Αυτη ηταν οντως και κυριολεκτικα πελατισσα. Οι υπολοιποι ειναι απλως φίλοι αν και με καποιους εχω χαθει.

    Οι Εβραιοι Ελληνες δεν ειναι ρατσιστες. Το συμφερον τους και την δουλεια τους κοιταζουν οπως και οι περισσοτεροι Ελληνες. Για τους Αμερικανοεβραιους ομως τι εχεις να πεις; Εχεις κανενα λογο να τους στηριζεις; Ξερεις πολλους Ελληνες να λενε καλα λογια για τον Κοκκαλη, τον Λατση, τον Βαρδινογιαννη ή τον Ωναση; Εσυ αισθανεσαι καμμιαν αναγκη να υπερασπισθεις ή να κανεις τα στραβα ματια για τους Αμερικανοεβραιους που αιματοκυλουν την οικουμενη για τα συμφεροντά τους; Ποιος εθελοτυφλει;

    Το τελευταιο να το εκλαβω σαν χιουμορ ή σαν ρατσιστικη απειλη;

  16. Abravanel said

    Κάνε παράθεση μιας προτασης μου που να μιλάει με καλά λόγια για τον kissinger! Ελεος!

    Η Κανέλλη είναι πολιτικός και τα «χώνει» στους πολιτικούς άλλων πολιτικών χώρων και ποτέ του ΚΚΕ. Ο αυτοσαρκασμός θα υπήρχε αν τα «έχωνε» στο ΚΚΕ που είναι εκεί που πολιτεύεται, αλλιώς όλοι οι πολιτικοί αυτοσαρκάζονται συμφωνα με σένα!

    Εκανα λάθος πριν με το «σου» στην 3 παραγραφο, εννοούσα «τους» και θα διορθωθεί. Πάντως αναρωτιέμαι αν αυτοί που ονομάζεις σε έχουν ακούσει να μιλάς για την παγκόσμια εβραικη κυριαρχία και άραγε τι γνώμη έχουν για σένα.

    Οι Ελληνες είναι ρατσιστές γιατι δεν έχει βρεθεί λαός να κάνει το εμβόλιο κατά του ρατσισμού.

    Εξέλαβε το οπως θέλεις, όταν θα στείλω την mossad πίσω σου δε θα έχεις αμφιβολίες.

  17. Ο αυτοσαρκασμος ειναι οτι Ελληνες τα χωνουν σε αλλους Ελληνες. Εκτος αν τα πολιτικα κομματα αποτελουν διαφορετικες εθνοτητες και εαν ο Λαζοπουλος ειναι αλλοδαπος.

    Για τον Κισιγκερ εξακολουθω να μην καταλαβαινω γιατι ενοιωσες την αναγκη να τον υπερασπιστεις.

    Οι φιλοι μου οι Εβραιοι ΔΕΝ βγαινουν στο internet να κανουν στην ουσια ανθελληνικα blog ωστε να χρειαστει να ανταπαντησω. Ειναι προφανες αυτο. Καποιοι βεβαιως ξερουν πολυ καλα τι παιζεται και φυσικα κρατουν τις αποστασεις τους οπως εγω από τον Κοκκαλη ή τον Ωναση ως ευυποληπτου επιχειρηματια μονο και μονο επειδη ειναι Χριστιανοι Ορθοδοξοι. Εσυ δεν ξερω γιατι επιμενεις να ταυτιζεσαι με αντιστοιχους Αμερικανοεβραιους.

    Η παγκοσμια οικονομικη Εβραϊκη Κυριαρχια ειναι δηλαδη μυθος; Τοτε προφανως παραπληροφορηθηκα.

    Χαιρετισματα στον Ιωσηφ τον Μολχο από την Θεσσαλονικη και πες του αν τον δεις οτι ακομα περιμενω να μου στειλει τα βιβλια που του παρηγγειλα. Η γυναικα του πως παει μετα την εγχειρηση;

    H Mossad σιγα μην περιμενε εσενα για να κανει την δουλεια της.

    Παντως μην ταυτιζεις το προσωπο με το συνολο ουτε το συνολο με το προσωπο. Αυτο προσπαθω να κανω και εγω. Αγαπη χρειαζονται ολοι οι ανθρωποι και αλληλεγγυη. Οταν το καταλαβεις θα αφησεις το ροπαλο που κρατας προς οποιον σε πλησιασει.

    Αν ο στοχος σου παντως ειναι να καταπολεμησεις τον ρατσισμο διαλεξες ΕΝΤΕΛΩΣ λαθος κατευθυνση.
    Εγω το πολυ να σου πω ενα καληνυχτα και να σε αφησω ανενοχλητο. Φανταζομαι ομως πολλους που αυτα που γραφεις εδω αποτελουν το ΚΑΛΥΤΕΡΟ αλλοθι για να τεκμηριωσουν το ρατσισμο τους. Προσπαθησε να καταλαβεις τι λεω.
    Λες να θεωρω και εσενα πελατη μου;

    ΥΓ. Επειδη το ανεφερες αλλου, καποια από τα ονοματα που προανεφερα εχουν σωθει από Ελληνες στην κατοχη και παντρευτηκαν μαλιστα τις κορες τους.

  18. Alex. S. said

    As this blog is being also read by non-Greeks, excuse me but I will respond in English, especially for them.

    If the question is whether anti-semitism is mainstream among Greeks, the answer is an absolute no. It is misleading to say anything else than that.

    There has been a Jewish minority in Greece, especially in Thessaloniki. During the WWII the Archbishop of the Church of Greece Damaskinos had the idea of issuing national identities to all Jews in Greece referring to their religion as «Orthodox Christians» (similarly to all rest of the population) in order to save them from Germans. With the assistance of the chief of Greek Police (who is the father of the veteran Greek politician Militadis Evert), he managed to do it, and this way many Jews were saved. There are numerous «thank you» letters for this event. All the Greek people tried to protect the Jews during the time (their neighbours etc).

    As the quality of a people (or of a person) is better shown at difficult times, I believe the above incident talks volumes.

    Please, don’t over-exagerate marginalised views of the society to «prove» that Greeks are anti-semitism.

    Coming to the Kissinger issue.

    First point. Even if all that is true and the extract is purely imaginary, it does not prove any anti-semitism.

    Second. If the Greek post-junta political nomenclature was braver, Henry Kissinger could well be described in history as «the butcher of Cyprus», or at least «the man behind the slaughter in Cyprus». The apology by Bill Clinton in the Greek parliament and the numerous statements by US officials prove the prior knowledge of the invation (if not the agreement not to interact). If anybody disagrees with this paragraph, I would recommend the book by English writer Christopher Hitchens «The Trial of Henry Kissinger».

    Third. My second point does not (obviously) have anything to do with Kissinger’s Jewish origin, but only with his office as US Secretary of State. .

  19. […] Burning jews…with a…linktothepast στο How macedonian are YOU?Alex. S. στο The unchallenged perpetuation …omadeon στο Burning jews…with […]

  20. Abravanel said

    First, I do not defend Kissinger! In no place have I said how good a person he is, nor have I said he’s wrongly accused of acting in a brutal way – any one who’ll say that I defend him shall be considered a trolla and whipped in public.

    If the question is whether anti-semitism is mainstream among Greeks, the answer is an absolute no. It is misleading to say anything else than that.

    Thank you for the indepth analysis. I’m not saying that us greeks are bad because something out forefathers did or did not; this is not the case here because:
    1. I’m not saying greeks are bad.
    2. There are indeed widespread antisemitic views in the society and nobody thinks is an indecency.
    3. Common attitude is: less we hear about greek jews the better it is; look at the jewish cemetery of Thessaloniki under the Aristotle University and how many people know about the bones under the amphitheaters.
    4. There are events like the 2006 march against the offices of the Jewish Community of Thessaloniki which nobody opposed to.

    Damaskinos indeed helped the Jews, (not by issuing id’s, this was done by A.Evert and EAM/ELLAS only). He acted in an exemplary fashion and the Jewish Community of Greece is thankful for what he did. I must note that while he did all that he could, others like the Governor of Macedonia and the Mayor of Thessaloniki did all they could to destroy jewish presence.

    Still, what happened in WW2 does not characterize Greece because no one inherits the sins of their fathers. There is antisemitism because TODAY people discriminate or hate.

  21. TD said

    Abravanel-

    Your blog touches upon a lot of sensitive issues. Not surprisingly, well-meaning, reasonable people can disagree, get fired-up and get carried away, saying regretful things.

    My personal impression is that many well-meaning people make antisemitic statements without even realizing it, and get defensive when this is pointed out to them.

    The hope, however, is that ultimately they will understand otherness and confront prejudice. The other side of the coin is that not all critiques of some Israeli policies reflect a veiled anti-Semitism.

    With this in mind, the choice of topics becomes critical. So bringing Kissinger into the discussion was a distraction, leading the whole discussion to another direction. I think the discussion in your blog has become too emotional. One then ends up «inviting» statements of some lunatic and fanatic morons – these people should be excluded from the discourse – any response to them legitimizes them.

    TD

  22. Abravanel said

    Is it possible to make a dialogue with these people? How can one prove that does not rule the world? Just yesterday I read a great post that depicts the problem accurately -> http://postnuclear-icehouse.blogspot.com/2008/03/blog-post_30.html

    I did not bring any «Kissinger matter» out. I just commented on how urban myths are accepted without any questioning by greek society. This love for conspiracies involves me, as a greek jew, because in most conspiracy theories in Greece the jews are the protagonists. From being responsible for the Peloponnesean War between Sparta and Athens according to Karatzaferis, to Jews being responsible for 9/11. Lately I found out that Jews are to blame for WW1 too.
    In particular the fake Kissinger Statement is used as yet another proof that jews plot against Greece, another antisemitic outburst. Having that repeated by the most successful TV persona and have only a couple of columnists protests…well, it’s worries me a jew first and does not make me proud as a greek second.

    Also please review again all the subjects I’ve dealt with insofar. I have never posted, in over a year, anything that has to do with the Middle East conflict. On the other hand when we have marches against the Jewish Community of Thessaloniki, then frankly I do think that this is a wholly internal greek issue and is not a criticism towards israeli politics.

    I do agree that criticism to Israel does not equal to antisemitism. I also concede that sometimes american jews are overtly easy with crying wolf; not because of the absolute merit of the criticism but because there are different circumstances in the US and Europe. What do I mean? When someone called Sharon a butcher then the meaning is different in USA, in France, in Italy and in Greece. In the US it would more likely take the meaning of an immoral politician that sacrifices lives of patriotic palestinians; in Greece it would mean this but to others it would also mean that it is quite possible that eg Jews butcher Palestinians and remover their organs. This was the headline of Apogevmatini some years ago which managed to revive the heinous blood libel accusations against the Jews which were cause of pogroms in Europe including Greece. Same accusation, different contexts and different motivations.

    In any case we’re drifting off course now. I wanted to ask you? What part of my comments induced you to thinking that I equaled criticism to Israel to antisemitism? :)

  23. TD said

    Thanks for the response and for referring me to that allegoric post. Now, to your points:

    1. I agree that myths are accepted without any questioning by Greek society. In the late 90s, I remember speaking with Greeks who refused to accept that Serbs had committed war crimes in Bosnia. Believe me, they were not Karatzaferis followers! A scary thought.

    2. I agree that many Greeks like conspiracy theories. Any linguist/analyst examining the supposed Kissinger statement would conclude that it is bogus. I think it is an example of Greeks’ obsession with conspiracy theories. That’s the salient point. Whether it is Kissinger alone who is after the Greeks, the entire American government, the US Jews, world Jewry, or the whole bloody world, one just cannot know without knowing the context and motivations of the propagators of this particular theory. I just caution on interpreting such statements as purely anti-Semitic.

    3. Thanks for pointing out to me your avoidance of the Middle East conflict. I think that’s a sound editorial decision.

    4. I do not think that is below Apogevmatini to be anti-Semitic. But to revive those blood libels? How credible were those articles? Do Greeks of our generation believe such things?

    5. On your question “What part of my comments induced you to thinking that I equaled criticism to Israel to antisemitism”, my answer is that NONE of your comments (or the general tone of your blog) did. I thoughtlessly said what I said because: a) anti-Semitism in the US does not have the crude forms it has in Greece, and b) Some American Jews see dark motives under any critique of Israel. See how some American Jews are responding to the “reflexive” approaches of older pro-Israel groups:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/washington/25lobby.html?_r=1&scp=5&sq=jews&st=nyt&oref=slogin

  24. Abravanel said

    4. Unfortunately they do. Nowadays no one shall say that a jew uses blood of christian children to make matza; they do say that Israelis, (i.e.Jewish), kill Palestinians to take their organs.

    http://thumbsnap.com/v/uBAAkxG5.jpg

    Apogevmatini in that case was not only antisemitic but also bad journalists and it was the main title of the newspaper for the day. People that day bought Apogevmatini seeing that title and ESIEA didn’t utter a single word. Again I repeat that we talk about Apogevmatini, a mainstream «big» newspaper, not some obscure pamphlet. So yes, they are likely to believe the blood libel and other similar stuff.

    On what the people are ready to believe:
    I have a friend, a guy that has had an education and was raised in the city and is now in his mid ’30s. He asked me if it is true that each Jew is entitled to receiving a shop by the Community. I know it is hard to believe but there was nothing «wrong» with him, we got along just fine, had a great time together and he valued me, (at least he never showed the opposite). And yet this guy, a perfectly normal person, fairly intelligent, not at all religious, that honestly liked me told me such a completely stupid thing that I argued for 5′ before replying because I thought he was pulling my leg.

    You have no idea of how much is antisemitism embedded in the collective subconscious; what saves the day is the traditional lack of violence that characterizes Greece. (I know that there are beatings of black immigrants, the occasional desecration of jewish cemeteries etc but is limited to what we see in France or Eastern Europe).

    As far as criticizing Israel I think that Greece presents us with a unique possibility thanks to the how care-free is your average antisemite. For example look at this post. If you read the article there’s absolutely nothing that is more than an completely legitimate criticism to the israeli actions. If you continue to look around the blog, you’ll presume that she’s your typical liberal blogger and, judging from her Blogroll, is against nationalism and racism.

    Then take a look at the comments of the article. All fine and well until we reach Panos and where he says that unless Israel stops controlling the World Economy nothing will change, (typical accusation is that jews/zionists control the economy and governments). Does the poster and owner of the blog correct him? No, instead she launches into suggesting that there things that we never get to know etc, (ie conspiracy theories). Do I believe she’s antisemitic? Undoubtedly yes; not because she’s criticizing Israel but because she’s adopting typical jewish stereotypes used by the right wing. The problem is that veiled antisemitism is translated in every day life, whether this being the desecration of monuments during the marches during the war in Lebanon or my personal relationships, (and mind you that I’m extremely reluctant to comment on the Middle East in my real life).

    It may seem that I’m exaggerating but I never had believed that I would have seen a march against the offices of the Jewish Community, sponsored by two parties that are democratically elected in the Greek Parliament, the Communist Party and Synaspismos. So again, all criticism to Israel isn’t antisemitism but let’s also remember that you don’t need to tell that jews should die to rate your message as antisemitic – it depends, and shall always depend, from what kind of person you are and what you say before and after the criticism.

  25. TD said

    Clearly, there is compartmentalization of opposing ideas: Speaking against racism, then being racist or anti-Semitic. There is also the psychology of the masses – what you refer to as the «collective subconscious». Is there any academic research on the role of mass psychology in generating/perpetuating anti-Semitism? We also lack leaders: Have you ever seen one of the big-time politicians and Church leaders go out on the TV «parathyra» and unequivocally condemn anti-Semitism, and loudly proclaim that it is nonsense? No – they «condemn» anti-Semitism and, in their next sentence, “balance” that “condemnation” by pouring vitriol on Israel.

    The question is: How do you fight anti-Semitism and racism? Here is an existential question for you: Do you think that your blog can change people’s minds? I think yes, but those of only a few people, especially those teetering on the edge of anti-Semitism.

    [Then again, my own experience tells me that minds change: I remember how ethnocentric I was at the beginning of the FYROM naming dispute, and how I have tempered my views. If you think about it, the government and a good number of Greeks have come a long way on this issue].

    I think a main benefit from the blog is that it transforms anger and frustration into ideas about PRACTICAL ways of fighting anti-Semitism and racism. Here are some concrete ideas: Greek Jews and non-Jews can found an association to save as many tombstones as possible from the ancient Salonican cemetery. The school curriculum should expand the coverage of the Holocaust. The media can avail themselves to members of minorities to speak about their lives.

  26. Abravanel said

    Is there any academic research on the role of mass psychology in generating/perpetuating anti-Semitism?

    There are many papers which deal with the phenomenon. I’ll limit myself in saying that antisemitism works as a collective psychosis and the jew is furnishing your typical scapegoat. The «jew» though assumes an imaginary role becoming the ultimate evil. That’s why on a personal level many feel that they are not racists since they would not have problems consorting with jews, but they are against the «Jews» as a collective entity that controls the world.
    Many also have argued that we hate the Jew because we see in him a reflection of the worst part of ourselves. Now I’ve presented this view rather simplistically but there is some interesting bibliography behind this opinion.

    Again I repeat that antisemitism isn’t only a form of personal racist views, but also works as collective psychosis.

    We also lack leaders: Have you ever seen one of the big-time politicians and Church leaders go out on the TV “parathyra” and unequivocally condemn anti-Semitism, and loudly proclaim that it is nonsense? No – they “condemn” anti-Semitism and, in their next sentence, “balance” that “condemnation” by pouring vitriol on Israel.

    You are 100% correct on this one and in my opinion you focused exactly on the core of why we still have an upsurge of antisemitism in a country with no jews.

    The naming dispute between Greece and FYROM, (I believe monopolizing the name is wrong for either countries), is indicative. The change of greek thinking came after Greek political leadership realized that the battle was lost and decided to inform the public. In the past anyone who expressed a different opinion faced severe problems, the story of N.Dimou is indicative, while now we are rich in articles stating the problems with the policy pursued before. What has changed? Certainly not the people by themselves, (there are exceptions to the rule of course).

    To fight antisemitism there is the need of the political will to fight it. Until we arrive in such a point, any measure and any action against it is destined to failure.

    Do you think that your blog can change people’s minds?
    I think a main benefit from the blog is that it transforms anger and frustration into ideas about PRACTICAL ways of fighting anti-Semitism and racism. Here are some concrete ideas:

    No, I don’t think it will change anyone’s mind to be honest. I opened the blog because I cannot say what I say here in the Real World out there. One also cannot hope to speak up through his local Jewish Community because for better or worse they operate under a different policy which is do not complain unless we’ve reached a point of no return, play down any problems, cooperate fully with the State, be more Greeks than Greeks, pass unnoticed and hope that bad people will go away.

    I understand this policy and frankly it was the only viable way in the past decades Still Greece has evolved and I think that facing it’s jewish heritage ad it’s jewish citizens today is possible.

    Your proposals are on the right track though, as I said before, I fear that they’re doomed to failure. Eg how do you think that the local Church headed by the lovely Anthimos* will react when somebody shall ask to look if the courtyard of St.Demetrius cathedral at Thessaloniki still has a tombstone or two? That’s why, as you wisely noted before, what we need is the political will before anything else.

    * regarding his love for the Jews let me remind what he had said in 2000: «Bring me the name of Jew or a Catholic that has died in the ranks of the Greek Army in WW2. It’s a matter of blood and sacrifice. We get killed while others enjoy our freedoms. Let them go back to their countries»link

  27. […] ξανά και ξανά οτι η από 15ετίας αύξηση της βίας ενάντια στους […]

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