PASOK, the great Jewish political party
Posted by Abravanel, the Blog στο 15/06/2008
I must admit that the recent political upheaval in the greek socialist party, PASOK, has disturbed me deeply. Former prime-minister K.Simitis faces the current leader of PASOK Y.Papandreou in a power struggle that is harmful to our great Jewish political party. Both are great Jews who have worked hard for the demise of our arch-enemies, the proud heirs of the El, the Greeks and it is difficult to take sides. In any case the bloody antisemites should see that the rumors that, us jews, stick together are false and we too indulge in civil wars unfortunately.
Here are some excerpts that talk about the jewish origins of these politicians. They come from sites, blogs and newspapers where journalists and the common people of Greece get to express themselves and discuss freely on the great Jewish leaders of PASOK.
For example we get to know about the famous jewish grandpa of K.Simitis who’s name is Avraham Avouris or Mordochaios Avouris. Mr.Simitis faked to be offended when people talked about his jewness and he stated that said his surname derived from a turkish word. Also Y.Papandreou is of jewish origins and suspected masson; his father and founder of PASOK Andreas Papandreou was a known philosemite due to his jewish origins and total adherence to zionism – his major sponsor was a jewish bank. We should not forget the contender Evangelos Venizelos, who’s surname derives from his grandfather Ben Zelon. Thankfully in that case we managed to circulate the rumor that his surname was «Turkoglou» and thus saving him. Even former contender Y.Arsenis has a jewish mother from Cephalonia. These great people follow the footsteps of the known benefactor of Judaism, Eleftherios Venizelos, whose gradfather was Benny Selon from Salonica.
(in the photo you can see the elite bodyguards of PASOK clad in green, with green armbands and typical zionist insignia during the recent PASOK congress)
I propose that PASOK changes it’s symbol from the green rising sun to the green rising magen david; it is more appropriate since every leader or contender for the leadership was a Jew!
PS. To the known kooks who inhabit this page. This is an article where sarcasm prevails – neither K.Simitis, nor Andreas Papandreou, Yorgos Papandreou, Evangelos Venizelos, Eleftherios Venizelos, Y.Arsenis are jewish. Only in Greece, (and the USA), can the origins of a candidate be cause of suspicion; especially in Greece any connection to judaism is used as the ultimate insult. In this case the rumors circulate as to cast suspicion on the «greekness» and the patriotism of the politician since jews are known enemies of Greece.
More
The whole Simitis/Avouris bussiness is best explained in this article by a greek religious newspaper: Orthodoxos Typos, 16th of June 2000 – «Jewish intervention behind the new identity cards»
Εκτός, όμως, της βεβαίας εβραϊκής καταγωγής του κ. Ροζάκη, ήρχισεν εσχάτως να γίνεται υπαινικτικός λόγος για την καταγωγήν του κ. Σημίτη. Εις την «Εστίαν» της 23.3.2000 εδημοσιεύθη η ακόλουθη επιστολή του μαθηματικού – οικονομολόγου κ. Σάκη Λέφα:
…
Συγκεκριμένα, ο κ. Σημίτης εξήγησε οτι ο παππούς του έφυγε από το Πήλιο και εγκαταστάθηκε στόν Πειραιά. Επειδή μάλιστα φορούσε ένα μικρό μαύρο καπελλάκι, που έμοιαζε με κουλούρι, άλλαις λέξεσι «σιμήτι», τον ωνόμασαν… Σημίτη! Ναί, αλλά το σιμίτι (κουλούρι) γράφεται με ι-ώτα ενώ το επίθετο του Πρωθυπουργού, το εκ του παππού του εκπορευόμενο, γράφεται με ή-τα! Η διαφορά δέ είναι τεράστια. Όχι φυσικά όση χωρίζει το ι-ώτα απο το ή-τα, αλλά όση χωρίζει ένα κουλούρι – σιμίτι (εκ της ελληνικής λέξεως σιμιγδάλι – σιμιγδ – σιμιδ – σιμιτ, δηλαδή κουλούρι στα τούρκικα) από ένα Σημίτη (εκ του Σημ, αδελφού του Ιάφεθ, γενάρχου των Εβραίων, εξ’ ού και Σημιτισμός κ.λ.π.) Αξιοσημείωτον είναι πάντως οτι το μικρό μαύρο καπελλάκι, που μοιάζει με «κουλούρι» ή «σιμίτι»είναι η «γιάμικα», το χαρακτηριστικό επικορύφιον κάλλυμα των Εβραίων!».
…
Εξ’ άλλου, η εφημερίς «Χώρα» (11.6.2000), είς εκτενές δημοσίευμα της περί της «παρέας», η οποία επιχειρεί να υπονομεύση τα θεμέλια της Εκκλησίας, αναφερόμενη εις τον πρωθυπουργόν κ. Κ. Σημίτην, γράφει και τα ακόλουθα: «…Θα πρέπει να εξηγήσει γιατί αποτρέπει τον εκπρόσωπο της κυβέρνησής του, το Δημήτρη Ρέππα, απο του να πεί οτιδήποτε για το θρήσκευμα του πρωθυπουργού. … Όλοι οι Έλληνες δικαιούμαστε μιας απάντησης για θέματα όπως του παππού του πρωθυπουργού, ο οποίος όταν ήρθε στην Ελλάδα άλλαξε το όνομα Αβούρης και το έκανε Σημίτης. Πληροφορίες σχετικές, που δημοσιεύθηκαν στο παρελθόν, θα πρέπει κάποτε να διαψευσθούν ή να επιβεβαιωθούν, λένε οτι ο παππούς ήταν εβραϊκής καταγωγής».
Other
More on the dispute Papandreou-Simitis here and here for comments and news. Also
Ο Α. Παπανδρέου, γιος της Πολωνοεβραίας Σοφίας Μινέικο, συνέδεσε την άνοδό του στην εξουσία με την απόλυτη πρόσδεσή του στον διεθνή σιωνισμό. Αντλώντας την οικονομική υποστήριξη για την ίδρυση του ΠΑΣΟΚ από την τράπεζα «Τσαίηζ Μαχνάτταν» (Chase Manhattan, όπως έχει καταγγελθεί χωρίς να διαψευσθεί στο βιβλίο του Αθ. Στριγά «Παγκόσμιοι Εντολοδότες») η οποία ανήκει ως γνωστόν στην πανίσχυρη εβραϊκή οικογένεια των Ροκφέλλερ,
…
Φημολογείται ότι η μητέρα του Αρσένη είναι εβραϊκής καταγωγής εκ Κεφαλληνίας, το γένος Ραζή.
…
Σημίτης, υπό την ιδιότητα του Υπουργού Βιομηχανίας το 1995, όπως απεκάλυψε η εφημερίδα «Το ‘Ονομα» (31-8-1995) με εκτεταμένο δημοσίευμά της, επιχείρησε να παραδώσει τα ναυπηγεία Σκαραμαγκά στην εβραϊκή εταιρεία «Οφερ Μπράδερς», η οποία σε συνέργεια με τη Μοσσάντ, Πηγή
Ios on the antisemitic rumors on mr.Simitis, ex Avouris.
No future for PASOK – Evangelos Venizelos is Jewish according to this commenter in E.Venizelo’s blog!
Change the name of Athens airport from Venizelos, (the greek version of Ben Salom), to Macedonia from a delirious neonazi.
The grandfather of Eleftherios Venizelos is a Jew by the surname Ben Selon – he is responsible for the 1922 Asia Minor Disaster.
Common myth in Greece the jewish origins of K.Simitis here and here or here.
Abravanel, the Blog 
Abravanel said
Just a disclaimer: some of the people are obviously delirious and say things that even hardcore antisemites would be hesitant to believe. Other rumors are widespread and arrive to national prominence like the one on K.Simitis being a Jew. This one I have heard it tenths of times by taxi drivers, read tons of internet pages explaining how he changed his name and read newspaper articles. During the protests for the new identity cards, (which cancelled the voice «religion»), it was a usual insult to imply that Prime Minister K.Simitis was jewish. He eventually had to make a public statement to clear his name from this allegation, while he felt other accusations went unanswered.
Also it’s funny that at least A.Papandreou and El.Venizelos have been negative protagonists in the history of the jewish greeks; personally I’d expect anyone else to be accused of judaism except them.
physicist said
This is just plain unbelievable. Does anybody know what kind of circulation this «Orthodoxos Typos»-rag has?
plagal said
Ha! You think you and your evil jewish co-conspirators against our glorious nation can really fool anyone? It is patently obvious that behind the seemingly serious crisis there is only a well coordinated zionist plan. They only fake to disagree so as to blind our innocent people with such gimmicks.
Anyone with at at least a tiny bit of brain damage can see the truth…
You know why? Because PASOK are socialists and socialists are only more jew-friendly bolsheviks. And everyone knows just what Judaeo-communists stand for…
(Mein Gott, I just called PASOK socialists…. Oh, what concessions a man can make in the name of sarcasm…)
Abravanel said
Not all unbelievable – the myth on Simitis being a Jew is extremely widespread; personally it’s the «jewish question» friends have asked me more since 2000.
Orthodoxos Typos had a circulation of about 1000 pieces in 2005. But let’s remember that if Orthodoxos Typos is a fringe newspaper, there are other newspapers mentioned in the article like Estia, Chora or To Onoma. I even remember while googling that papers like Vima mentioned the rumor, although in that case the purpose was to ridicule it. I even recall reading a statement of the KIS against a collumnist in the Salonica newspaper, Agelioforos, that reproduced the rumor though I can’t find an online version of it.
Abravanel said
@ Plagal:
You may have understood us but thanks to Herzl we have managed to get rid of you…or do you think your future transatlantic transfer was by chance?
ps. lol on the last last line :D
physicist said
@Abravanel 4
Thanks, Abravanel. I happen to live aborad, so I don’t get every detail of Greek «political» life, so the «Simitis-is-a-Jew» thing hadn’t reached my ears. Trying to recall if this kind of anti-Jew demagogy was around when I was livin in Greece (I left in the late 80s). I guess it always existed in some form but I never payed too much attention to it (maybe I wasn’t even sensitive to it).
Not much to do on the legal side, I am afraid, regarding spreading of antisemetic BS from parts of the printed press but maybe independent blogs are the bearers of the modern version of Enlightment. Certainly, inquiring minds have places to look into nowadays and that’s reason for hope, I ‘d say.
Keep it up, all best, p.
plagal said
Shhhhh!!! Shhhh!!! Don’t speak that name out loud!!! You might accidentaly reveal that I have been sold out to the Global Zionist Conspiracy(tm) and have been transferred to its Global Zionist Headquarters(tm) so as to be indoctrinated by evil Canadian Judaeo-Skopians on the true meaning of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion(tm)….
argos said
Circulation of Estia ~3000 pc
of Chora ~7000-10000
Orthodoxos Typos ~ 1000
Onoma ~ 7000
Total 21.000
Population of Greece ~ 10.000.000
If somebody read your post and does not know people and facts from Greece then he/she will assume that everybody here is thinking the same way, even if you explain that this is a sarcastic one. You can see it from the different way plagal and physicist are commenting. We are not all Liakopoulos.
And you know it
P.S. You wrote «Only in Greece, (and the USA), can the origins of a candidate be cause of suspicion; especially in Greece any connection to Judaism is used as the ultimate insult.» how many members of the Jewish parliament are Muslims? How many members of Muslim countries parliaments are Jews? I think the problem is in any form of religious fanaticism. You know that Orthodoxos Typos is a publication of the church or of a group that is near to the church.
Abravanel said
I have often said that antisemitism in Greece is not a violent one and not more extreme than other Western countries. I have also said that most troubling is the absolute absence of any opposition by the political world or the civil society.
These are only but a few newspapers that have mentioned the Simitis-is-a-jew rumor. It was also mentioned many times in TV during the identity cards crisis.
Do you know how many more reproduced the jews-behind-9/11 rumor?
Isn’t it true that a parliamentary, (Karatzaferis when he was an N.D. mp), made a formal statement in parliament questioning the greekness and trustworthiness of a christian orthodox member member of the Government because «jewish blood» run in the veins of his forefathers? And ok, we are not all Karatzaferis fans, why didn’t a single member of his own party rise up to defend him? Why didn’t ND condemn his words?
Yes, Liakopoulos indeed is a fringe personality, on the borderline between becoming ridiculed but also an inspiration. Yes, everyone in Greece does not think that Greeks derive from the El. But the majority in Greece do believe in one or another world conspiracy. This by itself is not unusual, again look at the US. But what is troubling in Greece is the aforementioned total lack of any opposition to these.
Yes, in Greece all do not think like Liakopoulos. But those who do are not an idiotic tiny minority. You live in a city, Thessaloniki, where these phenomenon is more widespread; should I speak of the Book Fair of Thessaloniki which caters for it’s audience by having an impressive array of simil-liako books? And it’s not just me who claims it. Or didn’t LAOS parliamentary Velopoulos come to prominensce in the city by being a tv salesman of similar books? I remember once reading that in Thessaloniki, in the afternoons, one could see 3 tv channels all marketing Liakopoulos, Adonis Yeorgiadis and Velopoulos.
I would not like this to come as an attack to Thessaloniki. Only to point out episodes that you too are aware of. And maybe raise the awareness that we’re not so far away from the time when Liakopoulos becomes mainstream.
My goal isn’t to say what filthy antisemites christian greeks are. With similar jews-did-it articles I simply want to bring to the surface the whole antisemitic slime that grows unbothered. Right now the problem is that everyone claims that hear no evil-see no evil, ie there is litle antisemitism and it is contained in small extreme right groups. I beg to differ.
argos said
You know where I stand, in my beliefs, cause you read me. But again I had to comment your post because exactly of what you wrote, in your last comment. You know exactly the situation in this country and in this city (thessaloniki)and you know why nobody is not Talking. Not even the Greek Jews, especially the Jews of Thessaloniki. I often asked myself and others (through my blog) why the Jewish community in Thessaloniki does not have a more energetic role in the life of the city (I mean politically mostly) they just talk when something is threaten their closed community and not the wider community of the city and don’t tell me that they are afraid. Having people like Liakopoulos, or Velopoulos doesn’t make us all enemies of the jews.
In any case the stories that you wrote, I mean about the origins of the politicians, are only believed by the people who are not well educated and who are exploited by the church and of course by the dipole church-politicians. As long the citizens are ignorant they can rule without anybody questioning their politics. The only solution is education and many different sources of information, for everybody.
P.S. Thank you for the last part with the members of the parliament, the only one i could find was the one in Iran.
Antilogia said
Common myth in Greece the jewish origins of K.Simitis here and here or here.
And here.
Heck, what’s wrong with sb having jewish origin? Sarkozy brags about it.
As I see it, to suggest otherwise would be ..uhmm.. anti-semitic.
So it’s not the rumours that are per se anti-semitic. It is the notion that because of him allegedly being jewish he is a worse person than he would be if he weren’t. Which is not always the case.
Besides, his surname is -by greek orthography- «Semitis».
It’s not exactly far-fetched to assume a jewish origin, much like someone called «Greco» having a greek one, isn’t that so, monsieur Abravanel?
I think your point should be: «Even if he indeed had a jewish granfather, what’s wrong with that»?
Not that it is antisemitic to claim this as a fact. It may be false, but it’s not anti-semitic.
Abravanel said
@ argos
Ι have been reading you long before I became involved as abravanel and I imagine you refer to this.
There is a post in the Drafts section which tries to answer to your question and has been there for a long time. I haven’t yet published it because it is difficult to explain a sentiment and it is difficult to suggest things without being accused of finding antisemitism everywhere. I am not trying to avoid the question…just that it is more complex.
If I may let me note something: it is not Liakopoulos who is responsible for the climate of worry, (indeed there is). It isn’t because of Karatzaferis who wants clean greeks and not infected by jewish blood, it is not KKE who marches against the Community itself and not only against the Monument, it isn’t even mr.Yakumatos who calls mr.Simitis as the ArchPriest of Judaism. It is the absolute and total lack of any opposition to these things. That no one rises even to mumble anything, even to gain political points.
An example is the fact that you ask how come the Jewish Community hasn’t proposed a statue to Benaroya. With all due respect this is a question is indicative that you have no understanding of how the city works and how deeply rooted are some phenomenon. Or do you think that the Community decided only in 1997 that a Monument to the Shoah was a good idea? I kindly ask you not to consider that I belittle you or me being provocative – it’s just that you part from the presumption that people are simply afraid of the repetition of the Holocaust; no, they don’t fear that – they fear Kambel.
Abravanel said
@ antilogia:
Sarkozy brags about them because it is not socially unacceptable in France to have jewish politicians. In Greece it is the contrary. The rumors on mr.Simitis always exist in a cadre of presumption that jew=antigreek. They are never mentioned in a neutral way and they are always circulated as to discredit the opponent. Indeed the point should be «what’s the problem if he was jewish» but in Greece this question is rhetorical since the assumption that jewish means antigreek is dominant.
Mr.Karatzaferis has put it best when questioning mr.Rozakis for having jewish blood due to his grandfather, while his father/ mother/ 3 out of 4 grandparents were christian. He directly implied that this renders mr.Rozakis a suspect of maintaing binding ties with foreign countries, ie a traitor.
Antilogia said
About the Book Fair in Thessaloniki:
I have been there and it seems more like «everyone join in» style of things, no strict quality standard applied.
So you can find these books who border on pseudo-history (but not on anti-semitism, except for a few like Plevris’ books), but you can also find an array of marxist and other far-left publications.
[The irony of course is that they co-exist in such very short distance.]
However it’s them that have been attacked throughout the years by far-left gangs, books have been burned and people seriously injured.
Instead of their presence being indicative of any climate of intolerance, rather the intolerance is against them, for better or worse that is…
Φαιοκόκκινη Συμμαχία ή αλλιώς “Είμαι πράκτορας της Μοσσάντ” « Abravanel said
[…] Σχόλια Antilogia στο PASOK, the great Jewish politi…Abravanel στο PASOK, the great Jewish politi…Abravanel στο PASOK, the great Jewish […]
Abravanel said
Let’s not exaggerate and imply that there is a climate against extreme-right! On the contrary: LAOS political party is treated like any other party, neonazis beating pakistanis get away easily and even the Communist party is joining hands with nationalistic rhetoric.
It is true that an extreme right bookshop owned by a LAOS politician has been burned – this was a criminal act and it’s perpetrators should be brought to justice. But I do not think it is indicative of any persecution that extreme right activists face.
The Greek with No Name said
The reality is that there were several prominent Jews in the Young Turk movement. The reality is that there were no Jews prominent in any Greek national movement. Why is this so? Not sure. Jews do owe a lot to Turkdom due to their colonisation of Thessaloniki but this was a different Turkish regime, Ottoman Empire. Does this mean that all Jews are sympathetic to Turkish national aims through time and space? Of course not. However, it raises suspicions and makes some Greeks wary, notwithstanding some of the extremists. Abravanel, try and stay close to the facts.
Antilogia said
Abravanel, that was the 11th time in recent 4-5 years his bookshop has been burnt(sadly, not an exaggerated number). If a jewish bookshop had been burnt 11 times how would you describe that situation?
And it’s not only Georgiadis, but others -less known than him- far-right publications that have been attacked in book fairs and in their bookstores.
The Greek with No Name said
Yes, ordinary Greeks, with hardly any interest in Georgiadis, see these repeated attacks and begin to get suspicious. Abravanel, perhaps you can become an advocate for Georgiadias to stop burning his bookshop. Especially, since you are such a champion of free speech and information.
By the way I am not sure one can describe Georgiadis’s bookshop as far right. When did stocking books on ancient Greece turn into Nazism? If that is the case then they’d better burn down the classical libraries of Cambridge, Oxford, Sorbonne and Harvard.
Servitoros said
By the way I am not sure one can describe Georgiadis’s bookshop as far right.
—-
Which book is Georgiadis favourite?
http://jungle-report.blogspot.com/2008/03/o_27.html
If you ever visited Georgiadis bookstore (which i highly doubt about), you would probably found that along with Iliad and the Symposium, there is plenty of extreme right wing propaganda. What is worth mentioning is that the bookstore is only the frontage of the Georgiadis enterprise (and a very profitable one thanks to the insurers) and hardly you will see any customers in the store. Georgiadis main business activity is telemarketing. By producing 2-3 hour infomercials everyday, which are played from multiple channels (an illegal activity, which is tolerated by the state), Georgiadis is selling shitloads of books (mainly crap editions of classics and extreme right wing books) and has found an excellent way of attracting customers and voters.
Jews do owe a lot to Turkdom due to their colonisation of Thessaloniki but this was a different Turkish regime, Ottoman Empire.
—
Jews probably then owe a lot to the Spanish Empire that kicked them out of Spain. Ottoman Empire was a multinational empire based on religious divisions which welcome everyone under their control as long as they paid taxes, therefore jewish traders were more than welcome in Thessaloniki. Unlike the Greek speaking christian population who were active in the administration of the Ottoman Empire (Kotzabasides and Fanariotes), the Jewish population, due to religion reasons just followed the law of the land, without active participation in Ottoman politics.
The reality is that there were several prominent Jews in the Young Turk movement.
However, it raises suspicions and makes some Greeks wary,
—-
The non provision of names in claims as well the use of the word suspicions leads to a certain conclusion: Conspiracy theory.
Abravanel said
100% correct – I think servitoros expresses my opinion on mr.Georgiadis.
lol :)
Please, I should ask you Greek with no name, to stay within the subject. In any case please try to remember that most jews were slaughtered during the War of Independence or forced to move out of Greece. The only Jewish Community to survive was the one of Chalkida and that’s because it was awarded to Greece after the end of the War. When the Communities of the Ionian Sea, Corfu and Zante, were united with Greece – the Jews did their part in the 1897 lost war against the Ottoman Empire and despite antisemitic rumors or incidents.
When Jews for the first time appeared in significant numbers in the Greek State, after the formal end of the decade of the Balcan Wars and the WW1, they became an inseparable part of Greece. In WW2 more than 12.000 Jews, out of a population of 70.000, joined the army and among them were members of my family. One of the most promininent heroes of the WW2 struggle against Italy was M.Frizis, a high ranking jewish officer who was among the first to fall on the batlefield and played a crucial role in the first days of the invasion.
After the war the Jewish Community often collaborates with the State Department of Greece for national matters. Please do check the announcements of the Greek Embassy in the US, you’ll find out that at least they are not afraid to declare the active and continuous help of the Jewish Community; I can’t understand why the Greek Government fails to show off these cases also in the interior of Greece – maybe as not avoid the «slander» of appearing too philo-jewish?
Also please try and remember the case of the Jews of Serres, a greek town in Thrace. They refused to take the bulgarian nationality which was offered by the Axis-allied Bulgaria; the result was their deportation and extermination in Treblinka, while bulgarian jews were in their totality saved. I know it will come as a shock to you but Bulgarians saw them as Greeks of jewish religion and not Jews.
Please, in the name of ideology, do not discriminate greeks who have sacrificed themselves for Greece. You are doing an insult to greek history.
Kat said
Small correction on the population of GR. It’s more like 11.2 million
The Greek with no Name said
Servitoros, is your problem that Georgiadis makes money or the content of his bookstores? I think everyone has a right to make money. In regards to the content of his bookstores I have been inside and I have found the stock to be benign. The stock is definitely less Fascistic than some of the books stocked at some extreme Left wing bookstores which advocate the destruction of a whole class of people i.e. bourgeoise, and very often ethnic identity. Yes, I agree that the publications are not the best quality; I prefer to get my copies of Plotinues or Lucian from Kaktos publishers. Also, I do not particularly think Georgiadis has a good grasp of ancient Greek history. And regardless, of whether the books are far right or not there is no justification for anti-democratic arson attacks. These type of actions lead us down «slippery slopes» which can be distrastrous.
As for Jews in the Young Turk movement I suggest you do some background reading. Three of the most prominent ones were Jews from Thessaloniki, namely: the financier, Mehmed Cavid Bey; the pan-Turkist, Marcel Samuel Raphael Cohen; and Emmanuel Carasso Efendi, president of the anti-Greek ‘Macedonia Resurrected’ Masonic lodge. This is common knowledge and not a conspiracy theory. Look them up in Google or any book on the Young Turk movement. Also, many Jewish organisations openly supported the Young Turk movement in its later manifestations between 1908 and 1920. This is why, rightly or wrongly, Eleftherios Venizelos introduced punitive measures against some of these organisations and their members. This is just a value neutral statement of facts. Personally, I have no gripe with Jews. I am in business with several from time to time. However, when these issues are discussed I cannot shirk from the facts and I tell them. They are comfortable that and welcome my honesty. Then we get on with work. Simple. There is no need for revisionist history nor political correctness. Also, I come from an island that saved all their Jews. My father even remembers the Jewish tinsmiths in the Chora near Agiou Markos square. The islanders did not seem to have any problem with them at all. They were a part of the community.
Abravanel, yes there were some Jews that joined the resistance movements against the GERMANS but not the Turks. Obviously, the Jews realised that the Germans were not going to be as supportive as the Turks. By and large the Jewish communities supported the Ottomans and the Young Turks. Please try and report all the facts to some impressionable Greek readers.
Argos said
Abranavel, small correction. Serres belongs to East Greek Macedonia, not Thrace.
Abravanel said
@ argos: Correct, thanks!
@ The Greek with no name
Again you seem to miss the fact that there were only a handful of Jews to survive the greek Revolution and thus it would be statistically unlikely to have any jew excel in any «national struggle». When Greece found itself with a significant number of Jews, they did more than their fair share in the first occasion possible.
Also it is quite funny to see mr.Georgiadis bookshop described as benign. Let’s remember that this is the tv salesman who promoted a book that openly promoted the violence against the Jews and their extermination by a declared admired of Hitler. It was one of his favourites as he said. This by no means justifies the burning of the bookshop but the burning itself doesn’t redeem mr.Georgiadis whose bookshop is home to antisemitic slander like the aforementioned book or the Protocols.
The Greek with No Name said
I am afraid you seem to miss the fact that Jews were overepresented in the Young Turk movement; particularly in important positions, whilst they were not represented in any Greek national movement save the Germa occupation (but one could assign this resistance to saving their own skin). This may go some way in explaining the ambivelance some Greeks ahve towards Jews. Again, I repeat (and I should not have too) that this does not justify some of the lunatics that write in the Greek media.
As for Georgiadis, he is entitled to say whatever he wants. The last time I checked there is considerable hate speech in the Torah and Talmud sometimes directed towards Greeks/Romans. There is also considerable hate speech in the Septuagint, New Testament and the Koran. Maybe we should also burn down Christian, Jewish and Muslim bookstores just to balance the ledger? There is also considerable hate speech against Greece and the Church in SYRIZA affiliated bookstores. Are we going to burn those down as well?
Come on. Get real. Grow up.
plagal said
Yeah abravanel, grow up and accept the obvious truth that you filthy Jews have been plotting against Greece ever since that evil Saul of Tarsus first set foot in Athens.
I mean, come on, grow up. Can’t you see it’s all a conspiracy by you evil Jews against our mother Greece?
And get real man, those filthy ungreek commies on the left, they’re as full of hate as you are, always asking for «rights» and «respect for minorities» and all those patently ungreek things like democracy and reason…
Come on. Get real. Grow up.
Abravanel said
@ The Greek with No Name
Greek Christian Orthodox were also «over represented» in the governing positions of the Ottoman Empire, many of them served as heads of the State Department while other ruled autonomous regions. What should one make of this fact? That Orthodox Christians played a key role in the governing of the Ottoman Empire? It is naive and indicative of poor historical prospective to try to judge singled out episodes.
Plus you keep suggesting that Jewish Greeks fought with bravery in WW2 because their life was at stake. Personally I think it’s shameful to try and attribute such vile motivations when we have the sacrifice of the Jews of Serres who denied acquiring bulgarian nationality which would mean their survival, as not to strengthen bulgarian claims in Thrace and Eastern Macedonia. For a person who supposedly loves his country, you are quick to smear the sacrifice of your fellow countrymen.
As for mr.Georgiadis he is not some poor guy fighting for his opinion. He is a regular host of TV shown in major greek tv stations and owns his own transmission. He is more than free to say whatever he wants – certainly he’s more free than I am. He is not free to sell books who have been convicted to incite violence and the killing of greeks. Again I must note that while you justly oppose violence when applied to mr.Georgiadis, you are quite tollerant when he promotes violence.
@ plagal
Hey dude, I have already admitted to it! Hell, I’m even quoted as primary evil source; I even think of printing out this blog and publish it as a book – I already know the name:
«The Protocols of the Elders of Zion : With a Vengeance».
The Greek with No Name said
Plagal, please try and engange in the discussion rather than resorting to irony. I suspect you are incapable of enganging in a rational argument which is the reason why you resort to silliness.
Abravanel, the Greek Orthodox were overpresented in the Ottoman government because they were in charge of the Christian Orthodox millet and held many positions in regards to diplomacy due to their strong language skills and knowledge of Western and Eastern Europe. In fact, Armenians and Jews were also overrepresented in the Ottoman government in certain positions. Like the Greeks, the Ottomans used, and sometimes preferred, non-Muslims groups such as the Jews and Armenians. However, many of them played a double game of working for the Ottomans and working against them. Read the diaries of Alexandros Mavrocordatos. However, when the Greek national movement began in earnest, Greek representation in the Ottoman government began to decline.
However, the argument is, and I repeat unless you have difficulty reading, that Jews were not represented in the Greek independence movement and they were overrepresented in the Young Turk movement. The Young Turk movement differed from the Ottoman government in that it became; particularly, after 1900 a nationalistic Turkish movement. The Ottoman government was not particularly nationalistic. In fact, there was really no recognition of a Turkish nationality but a Muslim millet. The Greeks were not represented in the Young Turk movement. The Jews were overrepresented in the Young Turk movement. I am not sure why you have a problem in accepting this emprical fact. Would you prefer we denied facts?
As for Jewish motivations in the WWII resistance, I am not sure either of us can say anything with any certainty. Unfortunately, historical facts fail to provide the «why» but is rather good at providing the «what». However, we can only really hypothesise that Jewish motivations were probably a combination of protecting their property, their lives and possibly participating in certain Leftists movements of which they were overrepresented in places such as the Sovient Union. Please read Alexsander Solzenytsins «Two Hundred Years Together» which strangely has not been translated into English. It is conceivable Jews sought to participate in certain resistance movements in Greece in order to benefit later on. It would be interesting to get the proportion of Jews fighting in EDES and fighting in some of the Communist factions of EAM/ELAS versus the membership size of these organisations. These statistics could potentially provide a bit more colour. However, because of the small size of EDES the analysis could be susceptible to sampling error. The Jews of Serres that you bring up is an isolated case and does not prove anything. Although, this was admirable we cannot be certain they did this because of Hellenic national sentiments. Let’s not forget that Bulgaria was part of the Axis so why would they want to claim Bulgarian nationality when it would potentially mean a ticket to a camp?
Abravanel, in regards to Georgidis issue, again I repeat, almost any religious book promotes violence of some sort. Should we ban these books? Of course not. So why ban Georgiadis if he stocks Plevris (I must say Plevris is a poor historian)? Should we burn down Borders or Amazon.com because they stock Hitler’s Meinkampf or the Marx and Engel’s Communist Manifesto? Inciting violence and doing violence are two different issues. Even in the eyes of the law they are two different issues and therefore carry different consequences. The punishments reflect that doing violence is much more serious so they are not equidistant.
So far, thank you for the discussion.
Antilogia said
the burning itself doesn’t redeem mr.Georgiadis
How about crucifixion? It worked for the other guy (and saved the world too!).
He did promote Plevris’ book (although not mentioning its title and expressing his «ideological disagreement» with it), but the same book was sold in almost every respectable bookstore. How come «Eleftheroudakis» hasn’t been burnt down yet?
Apparently, the far-left doesn’t care whether he sells antisemitic books or not. It is because they find him too-conservative-to-handle that they burn the Classics and the other stuff he publishes.
The matter of fact is that people like him are being recursively attacked after being labeled by certain journalists and «monitors», as «fascists», «bigots» etc.
Last Saturday there was a new attack on another similar bookstore, «Nea Thesis», all books roasted.
Isn’t this what «hate speech» is supposed to do?
You complain about the potential threat of Plevris’ book against jewish Greeks. How many neonazi attacks did it produce since it was published?
You mentioned the 2006 attacks on jewish monuments in Thessaloniki, during the war in Lebanon, but it was the far-left that committed them and I guess they don’t read Plevris, do they?
In fact, it seems that they have no problem attacking both Plevris and jewish monuments.
plagal said
Is should try to engage in what discussion dear «Greek with No Name»? In reiterating that Jews were over-represented in the Young Turkish movement and under-represented in the Greek Revolutionary movement while at the same time absurdly claiming that historical facts don’t offer any of the «why»s?
You seem to think that if you put a lot of selected «what»s around and if you quiet down all the «why»s that History does provide us (ask Thucydides about how history does provide us with definite «why»s) you might just make a point. Because it is undoubtedly convenient if Historiography is without «why»s: you get all the liberty you like in providing your own explanations. And even more, you refrain from providing the explanation straightaway, you just present the appropriate facts. You see, coming out outright and saying «the Jews did it» has been quite a bit out of fashion for the last half a century, so you need to find other less obvious ways to say that exact same thing.
And the sophistry is quite simple, really. You hand-pick some historical facts, you ignore every sense of context, you fit them in on an arbitrary national timeline, you deny any possibility that those historical facts just might have reasonable explanations and you come up with what is nothing short of an alternative history, i.e. a grandiose piece of fiction where the Balkan Jewry is sort of an eternal enemy of the Greeks and an eternal ally of the Turks, who are of course are themselves an eternal enemy of the Greeks.
Well, no, I have no interest in engaging in a discussion about fiction. At least not the kind of national and nationalistic fiction you seem so apt at indulging in.
plagal said
Typo: first word of my comment is «I» not «Is»…
Ντροπαλός said
So if the family name Σημίτης denotes, that the carrier of the name is a Jew, then we can say that Bishop of Old Patrae Germanos was a German.
Why can’t we be rational, but tend to adopt views that make the whole world laugh on us?
:-(
I read your «about» page and I have a question: Is there any relationship between the Greek «Για βάστα!» (enough, hold on etc) and the ladino Ya basta ?
Abravanel said
The error is all mine: I allowed the engagement of a conversation which was completely irrelevant. The reason was the fact that there is not an established TOU – I have already asked them to stay withing the subject of the original post but they have not to. We also seem to disagree completely on the same historical facts, maybe because of their ignorance of the historical context. For example he is not aware that the vast majority of the Young Turks were not ethnic turks but albanians, roma etc. He has no grasp of the dynamics of the Ottoman Empire, neglecting that the birth of the Young Turks was initially hailed by all non-muslims and in initial congresses even armenians took part. He simply cannot grasp that jews had no national identity of their own until zionism was born and even then, many rejected them. Moise Cohen felt turk and he did exceedingly well to defend his homeland. the same way the jews of Greece felt Greek and defended their homeland both in 1897 against the Ottoman Empire and in 1940 against Germany.
It is interesting that they choose to accuse of people lacking the will to engage in dialogue with them, while themselves do not even read the answers but are only keen to leave innuendos. For example look at these excerpts:
Βack in #21: Also please try and remember the case of the Jews of Serres, a greek town in Thrace. They refused to take the bulgarian nationality which was offered by the Axis-allied Bulgaria; the result was their deportation and extermination in Treblinka, while bulgarian jews were in their totality saved. I know it will come as a shock to you but Bulgarians saw them as Greeks of jewish religion and not Jews.
Acquiring bulgarian nationality would mean a ticket to survival – Bulgarians saved all bulgarian jews and handed over to the germans the greek ones, since they had refused to acquire citizenship.
Again #21: In any case please try to remember that most jews were slaughtered during the War of Independence or forced to move out of Greece. The only Jewish Community to survive was the one of Chalkida and that’s because it was awarded to Greece after the end of the War. When the Communities of the Ionian Sea, Corfu and Zante, were united with Greece – the Jews did their part in the 1897 lost war against the Ottoman Empire and despite antisemitic rumors or incidents.
Your obsession in treating Jews as a singular entity is amazing. There were jews who favoured the greek national movement, there were jews who opposed it as lawful citizens of the Empire and there was a vast majority who was indifferent and simply wished for the turmoil to finish soon.
Still you are correct on Eleftheroudakis, you gave με food for thought…
The Greek with No Name said
Plagal, who the hell made up «a grandiose piece of fiction where the Balkan Jewry is sort of an eternal enemy of the Greeks and an eternal ally of the Turks, who are of course are themselves an eternal enemy of the Greeks»? You sound paranoid my boy.
Abravanel, I am glad you see the point about booking burning and stocking books.
Here is Meinkampf stocked at amazon.com. Probably the most inciteful book against Jews ever. Should we burn amazon.com?
Here is the Communist Manifesto which incites violence against the bourgeoise and which indireclty resulted in the deaths of 2 million Cambodians. Should be burn amazon.com?
As for the other issue read my posts really carefully.
plagal said
Well, that’s the beauty of the sophistry (or should I say trollery and kookery): you never said so. You only laid out «the facts»: no jews at the revolution, many jews at the young turk movement. That’s all you said, right? Oh, and the «there are no historical explanations» thingy. The explanation is only implied, with a blinking eye, Liakopoulos way. Well, «my boy», I really don’t have time for your perverse kind of «discussion».
PS. Equating the Communist Manifesto with Mein Kampf shows nothing more than sheer ignorance.
Servitoros said
The Jews were overrepresented in the Young Turk movement.
—-
The Greek with no name fails to understand the fact that there is a right to self-dermination, especially in a period when nation building experiments were in their primary. The three Jews mentioned in the Young Turk movement chose the Turkish Identity over their Jewish one, it is extremelly ridiculous to consider Jews, members of a nationalistic movement based on secularism. Even more interesting is the double standards of the Greek with no name when he groups people in order to provide us with an arguement. The Young Turks are Jews even if they reject their identity while the Greeks who cooperated with the Ottoman ruler are smart and cunning double agents (the praise of Mavrokordatos, a discredited politician who fucked up seriously the politically environment of the early stages of the Greek state is especially entertaining). My question is simple, is the Greek with no name consider as Greeks the Albanian speaking Christians and the Greek speaking muslims who actively participated in the Greek revolution? Is Capetan Kottas, the slav speaking captain of the Macedonian struggle a Greek or the right of self determination along with his actions are not strong enough to identify him as Greek? Are the Greek collaborators of the Nazis in Salonica more Greeks than the Greek Jews of the city who died in the concentration camps while they stole their property?
Here is Meinkampf stocked at amazon.com. Probably the most inciteful book against Jews ever. Should we burn amazon.com?
Here is the Communist Manifesto which incites violence against the bourgeoise and which indireclty resulted in the deaths of 2 million Cambodians. Should be burn amazon.com?
—
The main difference is that Georgiadis bookstore will happily sell you Mein Kapf while, i don’t think you will ever find the Communist manifestore in their selves. Georgiadis will probably dip himself in a barrel full of detergent before touching a book by Karl Marx. Secondly, Amazon sell books through a website and not by using the cover of a news show to sell books and promote racism, fascism and anti-semetism. If the CEO of Amazon or its website actually promoted Mein Kampf then a scandal would surely erupt. Thirdly Mein Kapf is the political manifesto of a fascist who was the protagonist of the most important event of the 20th Century and its reading is of extreme historical value in order to understand the politics and the philosophy of the Nazi Regime and its leader. From the other side, Plevris book is a piece of pseudohistory and fabrications, whose only aim is to incite racially hatred.
Abravanel said
I would like clearly to reject the paragon between the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf – I myself have not been easy on the Left and consider the Comunist Party of Greece as a negative element. Still that does not justify to treat a philosophical work to a book written with criminal intent. The Manifesto was interpreted in various ways, just like the Bible or the Koran, but Mein Kampf was written with «extermination» in mind and it is not a work geared at nothing else other to exterminate.
As for servitoros post I admit he caught me before I had a time to post. Orthodox christians of albanian descent were «over-represented» in the Greek Revolution. Does this make the Greek Revolution an organ of albanians, as you cunningly imply that the Young Turks were an organ of the Jews? For the rest I agree with his position.
The underlying problem which limits the understanding of Greek with No Name and antilogia is their obsession that the «Jews» is a singular entity. That if some jews decided to become turkish, that means that all jews became turkish. Or that they have a nation of their own which precludes their inclusion on the greek nation. Or that if some decide to support the turkish cause, then the jews worldwide do the same. This is one of the modern basis of antisemitism.
They choose to ignore that greek jews continued to exist from 1830, when the Foreign Powers imposed the creation of a greek State, and didn’t just pop in 1912 when Greece acquired Salonica. M.Frizis, who is a recognized patriot, is a Jew from Chalkida and didn’t decide to join in the Greek Army on the ’30s. He participated in the Asia Minor Campain in 1919 which ended with the defeat of Greece and when captured as a prisoner; he denied his release on ransom paid by the Jewish Community of Izmir/Smyrna and shared the fate of the rest of the greek prisoners.
Abravanel said
The inflammatory remarks aimed in trolling this thread and the complete indifference on what people write force me to consider you Greek of no Name and antilogia as trolls. You may shout at censorship all you want but you keep ignoring the replies your fellow commentators, or I give, and keep making the repeating the same things. In the best zionist tradition I’m warning you to behave or else I’m going to send the mossad after you – ask your friends at Resalto Magazine, they claim I already have.
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.
The Greek with No Name said
Plagal, you appear to have a tendency to see dark shadows everywhere or see things through the lens of a singular material dialectic. I do not want to get off topic and upset Abravanel but as Vilfredo Pareto alluded too there is more than the class struggle. There are other struggles too. Also, no one equated the Communist Manifesto with Meinkampf, they were used as examples to make a point. However, if we are to make a comparison between those books then what criteria do we use? If we were to use the criteria of literary value I’d say the Manifesto wins by a whisker. If we were to use the criteria of political philosophy I’d say the Manifesto wins. If we were to use the criteria of the number of people killed in the name of those political ideas namely, communism or Nazism, then I’d say that many more people have been killed or died through negligence from Communism compared to Nazism. I am not sure if you maintain some romantic notion about Communism but being a political philosophy; and therefore, its worth is measured by its practical success, then we can say without any qualifications it has been an unmitigated disaster.
servitoro, you are comparing to different periods. The Greek national independence movement around the period of 1821 was a time when national or ethnic identity was beginning to be fully recognised not only in Greece but elsewhere in the world. By the time the Young Turk movement got into full swing after 1900 national movements were well established. So we cannot make a comparison. The few Muslims who decided to fight in the Greek independence struggle fought because of personal grievances with the Ottoman authorities or they believed the Enlightenment values which kind of underpinned the independence struggle were more attractive than the values espoused by the Ottoman Empire. Although, we can be gratified for their support they were hardly full bodied supporters of Greek national identity and sovereignty. As for the Jews involved in the Young Turk movement many of them remained practising Jews or Donmeh which is a small group which is not wholly accepted by the Muslims. Please note I am now referring to the later Young Turk movement which morphed from a movement to reform the Ottoman Empire to a nationalist Turkish movement after 1908. There were non-Turks in the Young Turk movement before this time because they non-Turks saw the movement as a way to reform the Ottoman Empire. For example, Moise Cohen was very active in the CUP. Mark Mazower writes, «He saw Ottomanism as the perfect expression of the communities interests [Jewish]» (Mazower, 2004). Later, «the rise of Balkan nationalism thus increased the intensity of Jewish identification with the Ottoman state» (Mazower, 2004). In 1910, he established a Ligue de Ottomanisation in Thessaloniki. Mazower later goes onto to write that Zionism had a difficult time of being established in Greece because of strong Jewish identification with the Ottoman empire. There was also some talk of increased Jewish-Muslim migration to Thessaloiniki and the surrounding region to change the demographic balance (Mazower, 2004). Mazower (2004) then goes onto to write that the Jewish community in the city gave a «cool welcome» to the Greek army when it finally restored the city to its original inhabitants. Some Jewish leaders proposed that Thessaloniki become an autonomous statelet. There was even financial support from Ottoman Jews to the Ottoman army to continue the fight. However, Mazower (2004) then says that eventually Jews accepted Greek rule and hung Greek flags out of their homes on Greek national holidays. Again, Jews were overrepresented in the Young Turk movement and the Jewish community, at least initially, supported the Ottoman Empire against the Greeks. All this from a third party source.
By the way I was not referring to Alexander Mavrocordatos the politician of the 1800’s but the earlier Phanariot.
Finally, and to get back to the original point, I am just trying to explain to Abravanel why there might be some historical suspicion about Jews in Greece. I do not advocate this position. This position is as silly as oppressing the remaining Catholics in Greece in revenge for the destruction of Constantinople of 1204 by the Franks.
Abravanel, I would strongly hesitate to call the Communist Manifesto a philosophical work. It is a polemical article that advocates the destruction of the bourgeoisie. The fact that some people find this work of importance is a real worry. However, I would say that Marx’s methodological technique is important, but should be complimented with analysis as well. As for Meinkampf it does not explicitly advocate exterminating Jews. Although, there are some very strong statements against Jews. As for Plevris, he is a clown. If I was a Jew I would advocate his book was sold everywhere so people can read it for themselves, remove the mystique and element of danger that comes with reading it, and realise how silly he really is. Note I have only read excerpts and that was enough.
Thank you again for the discussion. I hope you do believe this is trolling. I have tried to provide references and remain critical.
Paul said
I would like to know what you think of the Talmud and Zohar..specifically there hate speech against Christians, Christ, Virgin Mary, Gentiles, Jewish Christians (minit)?
see video on the Talmud.
see Brother Nathanael Kapner’s
(was raised Jewish became a Christian and now exposes the hate filled Talmud).
The Young Turks were donmeh (crypto Jews) outwardly Muslim and they killed off the Armenians and Greeks cause they were business competition and because they were Christians…Muslims rule over Christians for many centuries but did not wipe them out…because Islam does treat them as second class but protected people.
The Bolsheviks were financed by the Schiff Banking family and most of the leaders were part Jewish or married to jews. Anti-Semitism became illegal and Anti-Christianism became the sport of the day in Communist Russia after the revolution.
In Israel today the Hassidics Jews are burning New Testaments and even BOMBED a Jewish Christian pastors house with an explosion that wounded his son.
ADL is trying to pass laws in the US like the ones in Canada to silence «Hate Speech» …criticism of the state of Israel or any Jewish group, or criticism of Israeli influence on the US government.
This does not indict all Jews, but we need to ask ourselves what such groups like Bolsheviks, Young Turks, ADL of Bnai Brith all have in common?
They target Christians and Christianity for persecution!
Why????
Answer….This is the most natural consequence of following a religion based on rejection of the JEWISH MESSIAH..(Jesus came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel not the Gentiles first) and teaching supremacist doctrines and hate of non-jews.
Judaism is not Christianity minus the New Testament and Jesus but a competing belief system.
(in fact a better name for that religion is Rabbinism or Talmudism, since Judaism implies incorrectly that it follows the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob…that means his Logos as well..Yeshua…the only people following TRUE JUDAISM are Christians).
Followers of the Tanakh had a choice go with Jesus or go with the Rabbis.
One became Jewish Christian the other Rabbinic Jews. and of course the former was assimilated into the Gentile masses once Christianity became popular.
The so-called Holy Books of Judaism teach:
…that Christianity is more dangerous than paganism
…and that Gentiles are animals in human form and other intolerant things like
….Jesus/Yeshua is in Hell burning in his own excrement
…was a sorcerer who lead jews astray
….whose mother was a hair dressor who committed Harlotry with the Romans..etc. etc.
…It is okay to kill, steal from or cheat a gentile.
Deny it all you want…BUT THESE ARE THINGS JEWS have exposed as true not so-called antisemites
Who? Israel Shahak..Jewish History. Jewish Religion
Brother Kapner..
Ted Pike….
or go visit the Hassidic web pages and see what they say about this matter. they corroborate what these ex-rabbinic jews teach.
I love Jews even the ones that hate Christ and Christians, but I love you by telling you the truth..Yeshua is the Messiah, repent and believe in him, stop your supremacist thinking and attitudes and follow Christ and his example of love, love even for his enemies.
Its the TRUE JEWISH thing to do…to accept the Jewish Messiah Jesus.
Of course you have the right to your own belief, but if Jesus is the Messiah then you have to take that up with him if you have a problem with that. I can only give you the information and you can choose to reject it or investigate further or honestly pray to God and ask him to reveal to you if Jesus is really the Messiah. What do you have to loose by praying that prayer?
If there is no God, no answer, life as usual.
The only place in Israel where Jews and Arabs greet each other as brothers is at Messianic Jewish Christian Churches.
How about not just calling yourself jewish..become really Jewish and follow Yeshua the Jewish Messiah.
Antilogia said
Still you are correct on Eleftheroudakis, you gave με food for thought…
Heh, do you actually read what I write?
This is the only sentence where your reply is towards me.
[FYI -and as …Mossad should have informed you- I am not the same guy as «The Greek With No Name».]
Who’s trolling Abravanel? :)
Now, take a deep breath and read again the posts bearing in mind the above fact.
If you have anything else to reply to me, don’t hesitate.
Abravanel said
@ The Greek with No Name:
Sincerely I must admit that I doubt on your good intentions but I admit that this was a well reasoned, albeit on parts wrong, post. This does not change my view of your behavior before as troll-ish.
You keep making three mistakes:
First you keep thinking of the Jews as only the Jews of Thessaloniki. There were a few thousand Jews who had survived the War of Independence and they were more than loyal citizens. Again I repeat the participation in the lost war of 1897 or in the Asia Minor campaign. What was then the reason why we had the pogrom of Corfu in the late 1800’s? Why we had incidents of persecution in the newly independent Thessaly? (all these before 1900). The basis of european antisemitism is not found in jewish behaviour but in per se, ie for jews simply being jews – a collective psychosis. If really people believed that jews were really that powerful, then they would try to become allies to such powerful persons! :D This is not a stupid notion that I put down, I already have something written on the subject.
Second you keep referring to the Jews as a single entity. This is flawed thinking to say the least, plus this is the way plain stupid conspirationists think. First the Jews of Old Greece (pre 1912) had nothing to do with the Jews of the new territories. But even among those there was heavy segmentation and until the 1930’s there were severe clashes between the assimilationists and the zionists. Karasso, eg was heavily against the new zionist movement and worked actively against it.
There was no active identification with the Ottoman rule, that’s why when Greece acquired Thessaloniki, a country which required from it’s citizens a much more actively patriotic stance, they managed to switch easily. The phrases from Mazower are taken out of context in an extreme degree, please do take the time and review them. Plus the link of the Thessalonica jews was with the territory and not with the Ottoman Empire. It is indicative than many immigrants in the US in the late ’20s described ethnically themselves in Ellis Island as «Thessaloniceans» and not as «Greek» or «Ottoman». That’s why zionism never managed to take off in Thessaloniki; even thessalonicean zionists preferred Thessaloniki becoming the capital of a future jewish state and not Palestine!
Thirdly you lack the grasp of the historical context. Indeed Thessalonika Jews welcomed cooly the Greek Army, (which had it’s fair share by participating in limited looting and some rapes) but the Community officials and Chief Rabbi facilitated the greek takeover. The Greek Government of these times was less suspicious, than you may think, on the loyalty of it’s new subjects and it’s practical view was that Jews were always law-abiding citizens and there was nothing to fear «ethnically» of them. The only true concern was that according to the right of self determination, which in theory Greece pursued also since it allowed her to go after Smyrna/Izmir, in theory granted Thessaloniki the right to choose their destiny. In fact various options were discussed and thought of Thessaloniki becoming an international port were indeed taken in consideration. The Greek Goverment of these times deemed these things more natural than you do and tried to swing the Jews of Thessaloniki by their favour; which in the end eventually did and that helped the recognition of the new status quo.
I would like to add one thing. Do be careful when talking about Jews identifying with the Ottoman Empire. Jews of the Ottoman Empire certainly enjoyed freedom under the Ottomans but rememeber that it was required from all of the subjects to be loyal. Greeks of Thessaloniki cheered in earnest the Young Turk movement in it’s beginning and accused Jews of being «loyal to foreign powers as to destroy the Empire». Should we consider the greeks of Thessaloniki as loyal ottoman subjects? No but neither we should accept law-abideness as identification with the Ottoman Empire.
Greece or greek christians of that era never actually thought of the jews of Thessaloniki actually being ottoman patriots. The eventual antisemitic laws or pogroms of the late ’20 and ’30s did not have anything to do with the «cool reception». Economic reasons, electoral opportunism and ancient religious hatred were the motivations – never the loyalty of the new subjects. Even when the loyalty was discussed it is revealing that jews were accused of siding with Bulgaria (!) and not with the new Turkey. So long for «ottoman identification» or «over-representation» in the Young Turk movement. :)
Plus: do not forget the greek jews of the Old Greece – these have been greek and patriots for the same time as every other greek in this country. If one can accept albanians, slavs and others not «pure greeks» participating in Greece, then it would be strange to single out Jews.
Paul said
The basis of european antisemitism is not found in jewish behaviour but in per se, ie for jews simply being jews – a collective psychosis.
No its the behavior of some Jews who take their cue from the Talmud on how to deal with their neighbors. If Jews were real jews and believed in the Messiah Jesus and behaved accordingly their would be no problems.
See Ex-Rabbinic Jew now Christian Jew Nathanael Kapner http://www.realjewnews.com
The Greek with No Name said
Abravanel, in fact I am not making the mistake you allude too. I repeat, I am simply providing the facts which some people in Greek society may use to build their suspicions of Jews. Of course, there were other Jews in Greece; like I stated earlier in my comments, I come from an island which had a Jewish community which as far as I know were relatively inactive in any political movements. They simply plied their trades. However, the Jews were overrepresented in the Young Turk movement and the Jewish community in Thessaloniki were generally ambivalent to the return of the city to its rightful owners. Rightly or wrongly some Greeks use these facts to distribute blame for other matters onto Jews.
I am afraid I have not decontexualised the statements from Mazower (actually I do not believe he is a very good source but I am not in Greece right now and do not have access to my full library). Nevertheless, I suggest you and other readers read Mazower carefully and without prejudice.
There is very little evidence to support the assertions you make in your third paragraph. Can you provide references? As far as I know there is no record of the Greek state considering that Thessaloniki become independent. However, there is evidence that the important Jewish communities were in favour of Thessaloniki becoming an international city of some sort. As an aside, there is a theory in Greece at this moment, which speculates that Jews have increasingly paid attention to the history of Thessaloniki and role in it, so as to hedge their bets if the Arabs manage to throw them out of Palestine; and then claim, with the support of their powerful American lobby, Thessaloniki back. The theory also uses comments made by Israeli politicans as the city being the Mother of Israel, and efforts by Skopje to claim it as their city, to support this theory. Greeks do not seem to have lost their enthusiasm for speculation and abstraction.
Regarding your fourth paragraph, you have failed to read my posts. I have roughly divided the Young Turk movement into two periods. The one before 1900 and after. Before 1900 many Ottoman subjects, both Muslim and non-Muslim, participated in the Young Turk movement as it as a reformist movement. During the second period no Greeks participated in the Young Turk movement as it became a Turkish nationalist movement.
The beginning of your fifth paragraph is incorrect. The Greeks were alarmed that the Jews of the city supported the Ottoman Empire before and after the Balkan Wars. However, later in the 1920 and 1930s, their ambivalence to the Jews was for the reasons you give later in this paragraph. You appear to have a problem in dealing with temporality.
Thank you again. A frank and open discussion, even if some of the facts are uncomfortable, is better than polemics supported erroneous evidence and selective use of facts. If you allow me to say this again, if I was a Jew, I would prefer frank discussion because then it gives the small minded conspiracy theorists and bigots less ammunition. What I mean is that if you are selective with your facts, they will eventually find out and say, «Abravanel is sneaky Jew like all of them» or something to that effect.
NaziSkinhead said
which fucking nazi-bastard saved mr el. venizelos in university in the centre of athens when <>? closed the pasoks peoples there and who was he ha! ha! ha! a little crazy right! ? whos knows!!!!zhtw i nikh poia apo oles omws??
Xenos said
Abravanel: your humour brings much-needed sanity and, indeed, enlightenment to the nationalistic paranoid entity known as Greece. Keep up the good work, and don’t waste your time debating their fraudulent historical accounts with these Greeks Without Names. Nomenclature is not the only thing missing from these people…
stavroula said
Haloooooooo! Is anybody here?
I realy have to admit, is a hec of an interesting blog.
Can somebody answer to that dude Paul…he’s been waiting since Jun 25th 08.
I’m greek, born and raised, but I’m leaving abroad (USA), and I’ve came across in 20yrs w/ a lot of citizens of Jewish decent.
They wonderful ppl, very educated, and always have a logical answer on what they think about
anti-simitism. Something like that which our friend Paul described above.
Yes, what do you think about Talmud. Even here, tons of ink has been spent in English translations…
@xenos
«your humor brings much-needed sanity»
Sorry dude. Seinfeld, the best jewish comedian in the USA that I’ve known, is what turns insanity and anti-semitism all the way around!
Mr. Abravanel should try.
Abravanel said
What do I think over Talmud? That it’s interesting how Mr.Plevris (and many more) suddenly learned aramaic, the language of the Talmud to be able to comment on it. I would highly suggest anyone to try and be skeptic over claims which have the stench of hatred embedded on them.
On the fabricate claims on Talmud please take the time and read this post:
stavroula said
I have NOTHING to do w/Plevri…or at least I didn’t know him. I left Greece In 1988.
Thanks for the info.
But I stil beleive that very religious Jewish (I think the ones you call
them Orthodox jews)are very much to themeselves. Something Paul described up above.
Any way I don’t hate ppl. I’ve learned to except them as individuals the way they are!
Regardless nationality, color, religion and creed. And I would’ve done the same even if I was
living in Greece. That’s the way I was raised. Indeed, I’ve met a lot of Jewish ppl as my
co-workers, neighbors and my husband’s childhood friends.
They’re beautiful, kind and w/a great sence of humor and most of all always have been nice to me.
I wish I have had met a few in Greece, get to know ppl you understand and accept divercity.
Thanks for the corner:)
PASOK, the great Jewish political party « Greece Sovereignity Watch said
[…] PASOK, the great Jewish political party PASOK, the great Jewish political party […]
; ;;; !!!! said
[…] PASOK, the great Jewish politicalparty […]
Bob said
Πολύ χιουμοριστική ανάρτηση και βλέπω με χαρά ότι έγραψες και για το θρυλικό Μπεν Ζελόν!
Η Οθωμανική αυτοκρατορία ήταν «multiethnic» ή «multicultural» αλλά όχι και «multinational» ρε Σερβιτόρε! Όταν οι πρώτες national movements ξεκίνησαν, η Οθωμανική αυτοκρατορία άρχισε φυσικά να συρρικνώνεται. :))
Καλά, ο ανιστόρητος μέχρι αηδίας Ξένος κάθεται και κάνει κριτική στα ιστορικά;
Σόρρυ για τη νεκρομαντεία αλλά κι εσύ τι κάθεσαι και λινκάρεις παλιά άρθρα ρε γμτ…
Antonios said
What none of you seem to get is the fact that its about numbers.. How many jews are there in Hellas? not enough for us to have two jewish prime ministers.. not even enough for us to have a single jew in parliament. We have 300K muslims and only 4 muslims in parliament.. we have less then 40k jews and (currently) a jewish prime minister? thats preposterous… Historically speaking we do have beef but should we get past that, numbers dont lie and numbers say that the jewish lobby has a bit more of a say then my average compatriot would like to see.. Please dont associate us with the tsars secret service that came up with that ludicrous book about the elders of zion.. but dont take us for fools neither.. we didnt survive for 8000 years by being idiots.. we dont necessary have something with your religion but no one likes a citizen with divided allegiances.
I know that Greek jews died in WWI and WW2.. just like i know of an entire village in the north that was decimated to protect some Greek families who according to the nazis were of the wrong religion.. and for heavens sake dont associate LA.O.S with the nazis.. we all have ancestors who fought or died fighting the nazis. we all know that we Greeks lost more then 250k of our population during the occupation and clearly the people who support LA.O.S have not forgotten that. Even xrysi augi which is meant to be a nazi organization would rize up in arms if the nazis were to invade again.. dont mistake patriotism with fascism as they are not related.. if u dont understand that read some plato perhaps u will.
Do keep in mind that as far as Israelis are concerned we dont need any conspiracy theories to understand what is going on in Gaza and we dont need to be anti semites to be against the slaughtering of women and children no matter what color or religion they are.
Before any of you ever open your mouths and utter a single sentence you should use your God given right and privilege to think before you speak.
Ow and one more thing.. As a nation we have always had enemies.. One of the greatest enemies of the Hellenic nation today is named George Soros .. A man who sold his own people during WW2 for a profit. i dont know if his religious beliefs have anything to do with his anti-Hellenic perceptions but that doesnt change a thing from who and what he is.
\
and one more thing perhaps some food for though for some check out http://198.62.75.1/www2/koestler/ .. perhaps its true .. perhaps it isnt.. perhaps its partly true perhaps its a waste of web space.. none the less it takes research to form an opinion and logic to substantiate it.
I may not agree with what you say but i would give my life for your right to do so. Would you give ur life to support it?
ΣΤΕΛΙΟΣ Κ.ΤΣΙΤΣΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ said
1=9=2010==1.25μμ==Προς ΑBRAVANEL.Σ=Υ=Γ=Χ=Α=Ρ=Η=Τ=Η=Ρ=Ι=Α====Ε=Ι=Σ=Τ=Ε====Ε=Λ=Λ=Η=Ν=Ο=Ψ=Υ=Χ=Ο=Σ===Ο,ΤΙ ΚΑΙ ΝΑ ΚΑΝΟΥΝ ΘΑ ΗΤΤΗΘΟΥΝ ΟΙ ΔΙΕΦΘΑΡΜΕΝΟΙ=ΛΑΔΟΞΙΔΑ.Θέλω ενα e=mail για να σας στείλω κατι σχετικό,που βγάζω και στελνω σε ολο τον κόσμο σχεδόν καθε μερα.Η αναγέννηση του Ελληνισμού προχωρά γοργά.
Clara L said
Geia sas,
nice blog Abravanel.
Just a remark.
Where did you get the information that the people on the photo are «elite bodyguards of PASOK clad in green, with green armbands and typical zionist insignia during the recent PASOK congress)»?
Looking at a bigger version of the photo you can see that they are soldiers of Tsahal, the Israeli Defense Army.
Your photo here: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1149/1030798424_b37c45c2fa.jpg
or bigger here: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1149/1030798424_3c8c919336_o.jpg
As explained by the author of the picture the green armband shows that they are instructors. One of them is wearing the sign of the prestigious Golani unit (the tree). Some of the other ones are from Givati and Paratrooper brigades.
They are standing at the entrance of the National Military Cemetery located on the Mount Herzl, in Israel. One can also read a Hebrew sign that says שירותים.
I doubt that PASOK would make a congress in the National Military Cemetery of Israel, and even more that the IDF would serve as they bodyguards.
Dημητρα. Εοaquim, Florida, USA said
θα ήθελα να σας πω ότι ο κος Καρατζαφερης ειναι Κρυπτο Εβραίος από την Ρουμανία που πήγε στην Ελλάδα συνάντησε τον Κο. Μητσοτακη στη Πελοπόννησο ο οποίος τον βοήθησε στην Πολιτική του καριέρα.επησεις έκανε την περιουσία του εποχή ήταν πράκτορας της CIA kaθως και της ΜΙΤ Ειναι αυτό που διάβασα σε ένα ΥουΤüber Kai σε ένα άρθρο από μια εφημερίδα στον Ιντερνετ