Abravanel, the Blog

Jewish life and not only in Greece / Εβραϊκή ζωή και όχι μόνο στην Ελλάδα

How to insult a greek!

Αναρτήθηκε από τον/την Abravanel, the Blog στο 19/03/2007

Greece isn’t characterized by a high sense of civil duty when it comes to respect of private or public property and graffiti, (and I don’t mean nice drawings like this but pointless slogans usually politically or sport oriented), is widespread. These slogans are great social indicators and often are excellent to use when analyzing social trends.

Teacher Dude’s Grill and BBQ blog had some interesting photos from Thessaloniki. The last one is especially colorful, was spotted near the stadium of PAOK, (a soccer/basketball team from Salonica) and is the one reproduced here. Out of respect for his students, I imagine, he didn’t translate it but I thought it was worthwhile:

graffiti

“Jews Gay…”“Jews cunts”

I thought it was interesting to see how in an effort to insult their opponents the fans use the classical insults from the racist/sexist repertoire. For a man, presuming that all supporters are male, an opponent is so low in the food chain that he can be compared only to women and homosexuals. While for women they use the derogative term “cunts” concentrating on what women are good for, (as their philosophy implies), we see that for homosexuals they simply write “gay” and not a worse term like “fagots” or something similar; maybe they feel just the word is enough to procure offense. And of course a standard adjective is the “jew” which is the carrier of a wide variety of negative values and always a sure way to denigrate an opponent.

Always the hooligan insults in Greece are characterized by an extreme actuality and the exact opposite of political correctness. It is interesting that once a friend asked me if, as a greek Jew myself, knew if indeed Jews had founded the team of Aris Saloniki. I answered that to the best of my knowledge that this was not true and I inquired on why he wanted to know. He replied that often other fans accused him that his team was founded by Jews and he wanted to verify it! Apparently the simple fact that possibly a jew could be involved in the founding of a team was a reason enough to be contaminated, a kind of original sin. It wasn’t important that Aris doesn’t have anything to do with jews, (neither players, nor managers, nor anything else in his history), it was enough that a jew might have “touched” him to contaminate him forever without any chance of redemption. By the way probably this is the reason of why jews get the dubious honour of getting mentioned twice on the same wall, they get identified with the arch-enemy of PAOK, the team of Aris. So they become target for two reasons: one because as jews they’re a just object of hate and also because they’re identified with the traditional opponents.

Although hate speech in Greece is proscribed by law, people aren’t really scandalized when seeing it and in the specific case of graffiti no action is ever taken. Even repeated and specific requests by human rights organizations to erase them have no effect like the numerous reports by the Greek Helsinki Watch show. Anyway to wrap this post up here’s an advice for our foreign readers: next time you’ll want to insult your greek friend go with the “jew”, it’s a no-brainer!

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38 Σχόλια to “How to insult a greek!”

  1. omadeon είπε

    It’s amazing nearly every other Greek I know thinks (at least partly) that you (Jewish people) conspire in some way against him. Ah well…

    Reminds me of myself, when I was walking exactly like… Einstein, with two _different_color- socks on each of my two feet!!!

    Oh yes!!! I was convinced, somehow, that EVERYONE was staring at me.

    Even more alarming, was the dreaded fact they all seemeded to stare at me …somewhere below the waist. ;)

    I am not surprised. I realised this simple fact while walking home, an evening my car broke down. I was inevitably forced to walk outside a Greek house whose owners neglected to lock up their garden’s door.

    The dog’s barking reminded me intensely of the _essence_ of racism:

    Barking at ANY unknown stranger daring to approach a poor dog’s master.

    Well, Thanks for… not barking! :)

    Actually I feel VERY SURE of the fact you don’t bite, either!

    Shalom
    George

    P.S. I realize I MIGHT be just… reinventing Jewish Humour!!!

  2. omadeon είπε

    P.S.2 I was talking to your dog (NOT you) in the last line, before “Shalom”.

    P.S.3 The former clarification is necessary because… you never know, what anti-racists THINK, these days..:)

  3. omadeon είπε

    Yeah, I know, I know…

    You DON’T have to spell it out.

    Everyone out there in GreekBlogLand will be saying “yoohoo, the Jew-Loving traitor Omadeon is now revealled!!!”

    (the traitor-loving Jews are rubbing their hands, and so on…)

    Total bulshit.

    I MISS Jews. I MISS my Jewish friends, while in England.

    I MISS progressive, cosmopolitan, freedom-loving, religiously undogmatic (and self-skeptical) Jews.

    And I also NEED to ask a question, about the Jewish name of someone I knew, a long time ago. It must be a very honourable Jewish name, but does anyone know where it came from? The surname is “Szur”.

    Much love
    George

  4. abravanel είπε

    Well first of all thanks for your comments, despite whether I agree or not, what I think that is lacking in this country is public debate on these matters and your interest helps changing this.

    What you seem not to understand is that people don’t just stare. They actively curse at school, they write on the walls of my house, they deny the dead rest destroying cemeteries, they deny jews any involvement into public life, they deny honoring the dead of the Holocaust while they use the same monuments to protest on what’s happening in foreign nations, they simply tell us that we can stay here – the land where the fathers of my fathers have lived for centuries – if we simply shut up and don’t complain as if we’re not “true greeks” with the same rights like the rest. When they deny my history by ignoring it, then the excuse of jews being unknown cannot be held as true as it is a conscious choice of the society. Or to put it in other words, when responding to the accusation that jews are not greek one talks about the 11.000 jews who fought in the first line with the greek army during WW2, the reply to this fact is simply to ignore it or claim that it’s jews who’re pushy! Or should we talk about the steadfast opposition to Holocaust monuments in Greece? Why deny a monument eg to Thessaloniki’s jews when there are monuments for Chortiatis or Doxato? This is what I mean that people deny history, not that I demand arrogantly jewish history to be taught – just not be actively opposed!

    So I disagree strongly when you imply that what we see in Greece are simple instinctive cries against the unknown. Jews aren’t unknown in Greece, it’s just that the greek society chooses self-consciously to attribute to jews precise evil characteristics and denies it could be otherwise. While racism is indeed endemic in human societies and in this way Greece is no different to the rest of the world, the problem is that in Greece nobody acknowledges the problem and nobody thinks that something should be done for it. A trap which I’m afraid you’ve also fallen in.

    You talk about people staring and say that it’s the fear of the unknown. I agree that this is partly of why so much hatred but there are also other reasons which I’ll comment on in the future. But again I have to repeat that here, I speak of people that don’t limit themselves only to that and that society chooses to overlook the problem and declare self content that there is no problem.

    In any case the problem is that, at least in theory, I shouldn’t be stranger to them. I lived in this country all my life and the same goes for my fathers and the fathers of my fathers. All my family has shared the fate of Greece and paid a toll both in war and during the occupation. I am no stranger in this land and I refuse to accept that it is normal for people to see me like this, while stubbornly refuse to learn more about me. Until we realize that indeed this view is neither predictable, nor normal we cannot really fight racism.

  5. abravanel είπε

    May I also make a small remark? You state that:
    I MISS progressive, cosmopolitan, freedom-loving, religiously undogmatic (and self-skeptical) Jews.

    Jews are the same like all other people; saints and devils, clever and stupid, good and assholes. The progressive, cosmopolitan, freedom-loving etc jews are exactly the same as progressive, cosmopolitan, freedom-loving etc christians. A cosmopolitan jew doesn’t have anything different from any other cosmopolitan person.

    Ergo you probably lack of persons who carry these characteristics where you are now. Whether they are jews or not is unimportant. I doubt that any jewish community has a social stratification different from the greater society they find themselves in.

    ps. Searching google “Szur” appears to be of polish origin. It also appears to be a decorative motif in hungarian clothing so probably that’s where it comes from. There are a couple of rabbis with that name in the 19th century, it also appears in writings over the ghetto of Vilna during WW2 and ultimately I found some filmmakers etc with that name today, though I don’t know if they’re jews of polish origin or catholic poles.

  6. omadeon είπε

    “So I disagree strongly when you imply that what we see in Greece are simple instinctive cries against the unknown.”

    I also disagree with this superficial view of racist phenomena. It is not what I intended to portray, but it doesn’t matter now, since anyone could misconstrue this view quite easily; so your clarifications were perhaps necessary, and… instead of disagreeing with them, I welcome them. However…

    I was actually joking “the other way round”, from the point of view that (after reading other things in your blog, like the hooligan racist slogans) it would be ridiculous not to notice them; i.e. ridiculous to claim that “there is no antisemitism in Greece”. As ridiculous as someone who, while wearing two socks of different colour, feels dread at the fact that people are staring at him. In other words, behaving as if it wasn’t his fault. THIS was my joke, in fact.

    Since I am vehemently opposed to racist slogans on walls, what I also implied is that the innocent person, who is not a racist, may also feel uncomfortable about so much obvious racism that he fails to perceive and then…. wonders why others perceive it. Perhaps my joke was then unfortunate, since racism and antisemitism are FAR more serious than two socks of different colour. But I was trying to break the ice with a light-hearted view of a misunderstanding; NOT denying the serious things you analysed in detail, with which I find nothing disagreeable; on the contrary I feel quite concerned about them, as well.

    My only personal complaint, from contacts with Jewish people, is the degree to which it is possible to become misunderstood. This is because of the systematic forms of discrimination which you explain quite laboriously, and I agree with you; so “he was burned by hot soup is cautious
    about yogurt, too” (Greek proverb in free translation), making small misunderstandings escalate sometimes into big ones. Fortunately this particular misunderstanding was harmless, and it also gave you the chance to explain the situation more eloquently, so only good things came from it.

    Thanks for the trouble to explain this name I asked about. I appreciate also your modesty, and your avoidance of even the slightest claim of superiority or of special qualities, on behalf of Jewish people. However, my personal experience of particular Jewish individuals has left me with an impression that the percentage of open-mindedness in your culture (NOT your genetics or your racial attributes) tends to be higher than in certain other cultures.

    Persecution for so many centuries strengthens some positive character traits, which are mobilized to survive through innovation and extra efforts. This is purely a cultural phenomenon, of course. Of course it is ironic, that I am the one claims this is true and you are the one (with the modesty) to deny it; but then again, in this way you prove that you have mastered ONE rare quality, which is… modesty itself! :)

    I was trying to “break the ice” as well, by pointing out

  7. abravanel είπε

    I apologize in my turn if I misunderstood you. More important is the good will between people than temporary misunderstandings. :)

    It is not modesty who leads me to claim that jews are neither special, nor particularly rich of some kind of charisma. I agree, on a limited degree, on the society drive that you describe but certainly from such social pressure one not gains open-mindness but usually becomes more inward. As to your experience may I remark that usually people make friends people of their same kind. So probably it was you who was open-minded and thus close-minded people avoided you – so actually it’s your accomplishment and honors you!

  8. linktothepast είπε

    Νομίζω ότι υπερβάλλεις λίγο φίλε μου. Δεν ξέρω κατά πόσο η “ψυχολογική” βία κατά ένα τρόπο σε τρομάζει, γιατί αν πιστέψω λόγια της δικιάς σας κοινότητας στην wikipedia, δεν υπάρχουν περιστατικά σωματικής βίας εναντίων Ελλήνων Εβραίων, τουλάχιστον στην πρόσφατη ιστορία. Τα συνθήματα στους τοίχους εξάλλου ουκ ολίγες φορές στρέφονται και εναντίων Ελλήνων και στην φυλή. Με αυτή την λογική είμαστε ρατσιστές απέναντι και στους εαυτούς μας θεωρείς; Δεν είναι τίποτα άλλο παρά μαλακίες γραμμένες σε έναν τοίχο κατά την γνώμη μου. Όταν καθόμαστε και ασχολούμαστε με μαλακίες όμως, αυτόματα τις αναβαθμίζουμε σε “σημαντικές μαλακίες”, από ασήμαντες που ήταν πριν. Γι’ αυτό και πολλοί Έλληνες δεν θέλουν να ασχολούνται πολύ με τέτοια θέματα και δεν μπορείς να το καταλάβεις, τους δίνεις αξία τους ηλίθιους όταν ασχολείσαι μαζί τους. Τους κάνεις να νιώθουν λες και κάναν κάτι σημαντικό, λες και αυτό που έγραψαν έχει αξία (που δεν έχει). Μερικές φορές (όχι πάντα και ειδικά σε σοβαρά περιστατικά) η αδιαφορία μπορεί να έχει καλύτερα αποτελέσματα από την κριτική κατά την γνώμη μου. Η κριτική ΠΑΝΤΑ επιδέχεται περισσότερη κριτική και μπορεί να φέρει αντιδράσεις από πίσω.

    Τρανό παράδειγμα τα media, όπου ότι μαλακία και να κάνει κάποιος, όσο σοβαρή και να είναι, αυτόματα θα βρει έστω κάποιον οπαδό από την στιγμή που θα βγει στον αέρα. Συμβαίνει όμως και το αντίθετο, όποια καλή πράξη και να κάνει κάποιος, από την στιγμή που θα βγει στον αέρα θα βρει έστω και έναν πολέμιο, έναν εχθρό αυτής της πράξης εκείνη την στιγμή.

    Έτσι και αν σε κάθε φορά που γράφεται ένα ηλίθιο σύνθημα στο τοίχο βγαίνουμε και το καταδικάζουμε, αυτό σε μάτια κάποιων θα φανεί ότι το εν λόγω σύνθημα έχει αξία για να συμβαίνει αυτό και θα το ασπαστούν.

  9. Abravanel είπε

    Οι αμφιβολιες που εκφραζεις αποτελουν πεδιο προβληματισμου για τις εβραικες κοινοτητες ανα τον κοσμο εδω απο τον καιρο του Διαφωτισμου και μετα. Σιγουρα δεν σκεφτεσαι παραλογα αλλα υπαρχει μια ιστορια που διαφωνει με τις ιδεες σου. Μια ολοκληρωμενη απαντηση μου απαιτει ενα μεγαλο ποστ που εχω ηδη αρχισει και στο οποιο θα παραθεσω το σχολιο σου.

  10. Andrew είπε

    Hello i am a Greek young man and i would like to state my opinion, i believe that in every country there are some people who hate gays, jewish, nazis, communists etc but these are minorities! We don’t hate gays or jewish i am from a town near Thessaloniki (where this pictures was taken) an insultin message written on a wall by some anarchists maybe or some fanatic stupid people is not the statement of Greece against gays or jews. Also you should know that it’s under discussion marriages between gays.

    Friendly,
    Andrew

  11. Abravanel είπε

    Actually there is a discussion about a pact of domestic partnership but limited on heterosexual couples only, while the Greek Church has vetoed any extension of the law. I’d suggest you’d join in the protest against this fact: :)
    http://abravanel.wordpress.com/2008/03/17/%ce%a3%cf%85%ce%bc%ce%b2%cf%8c%ce%bb%ce%b1%ce%b9%ce%bf-%cf%83%cf%85%ce%bc%ce%b2%ce%af%cf%89%cf%83%ce%b7%cf%82-%ce%bc%cf%8c%ce%bd%ce%bf-%ce%b3%ce%b9%ce%b1-%ce%ba%ce%ac%cf%80%ce%bf%ce%b9%ce%bf%cf%85/

    I’d like to repeat a thing I’ve said over a million times:
    I’ve never said all greeks are racists. I’ve also said that greek antisemitism has not taken the violent forms of the french or eastern european one. What is different in Greece is the fact that this form of low-level, populistic antisemitism goes by with absolutely no resistance by any part of the civil society.

    A similar graffiti has the same chances of appearing both in France and in Greece.
    But in France people will go by and some may cheer, some may be indifferent and some will be offended. Still if anyone complains the mayor will certainly make sure it’s erased.
    In Greece some will cheer, the rest will go indifferent and nobody will be offended. And if somebody complains, like the Central Jewish Board, nobody will give a damn.

    This is not the way things go in Greece in general. If someone wrote anything in the lines of “Macedonia belongs to both peoples” there would be hundreds of protests and it would be most certainly be erased. Therefore one cannot but only deduct that greeks are indifferent to antisemitism. The antisemites may indeed be a minority but unless us, democratic people, oppose vocally to this minority, these pitiful people shall continue to dictate our policies and offend our fellow citizens and our pride as greeks.

  12. Nikos είπε

    Dear Friend,

    Very interesting site but narrow in scope. Its central theme is the cataloguing of who likes and who does not jewish greeks and jews in general. I was hoping it would deal with real issues.
    There is antisemitism and antihellenism etc. It will always exist, I assure you.
    In fact there is more antihellenism in the Torah than antisemitism in all extant greek texts and I could share with you some. Isn’t Hannukah an anti-Greek celebration? But nobody makes a big deal about it. Imagine what would happen if non-jewish greeks celebrated an anti-jewish occasion.
    So, my friend, chill out and don’t elevate trivialities into major cosmic events. And please, don’t tell me “what if this escalates into…” We have more serious problems to deal in this country, like for example Turkish aggression, the attempt by the Skopians to usurp our history and symbols while at the same time denying the Greekness of the Macedonians. In fact, there is support on this from ancient jewish texts who always referred to the Macedonians as Greeks for that is what they were. But I never saw you or any other use it in support of our cause against the forgers. I wonder why.
    Finally, why all this in English? Isn’t Greek sufficient?

    warm regards,

    Nikos, the Goyim

  13. Nikos είπε

    Αγαπητοι φιλοι,

    Επιτρεψτε μου να κανω , κατα τη γνωμη μου, μια σημαντικη παρατηρηση. Ορισμενα σχολια εμποτιζονται απο την αποδοση συλλογικων ευθυνων σε πολεις, ατομα κλπ. Προκειται δηλαδη για την γνωστη Ναζιστικη εφαρμογη της συλλογικης ευθυνης που εφαρμοζεται και σημερα απο υποτιθεται δημοκρατικα κρατη και ατομα. Π.χ.Ο κ. Γ. Οικονομιδης σε αλλη αναρτηση ζητα απο την σημερινη πολη της Θεσσαλονικης να… ζητησει συγγνωμη για οτι επαθαν οι Εβραιοι συμπολιτες μας. Μαλλον ειναι σε συγχυση και κανει λαθος για δυο κυριως λογους. Ο πρωτος ειναι οτι πρεπει οι Ναζι και ειδικα οι Ελληνες συνεργατες τους να ζητησουν συγγνωμη. Ο δευτερος ειναι οτι λησμονει οπως και αλλοι σ’αυτο το ιστολογιο οτι η Ελλαδα και η Θεσσαλονικη ηταν υπο…Ναζιστικη κατοχη και ολοι γνωριζουμε οτι οι Ναζι δεν ηθελαν και πολυ για να κανουν θηριωδιες.
    Ο στρατιωτικος Γ. Πουλος, συνεργατης τους, δικαστηκε και εκτελεστηκε μετα την απελευθερωση. Με μια εννοια δικαιοσυνη αποδοθηκε. Το να καθομαστε τωρα και να να κατηγορουμε συλληβδην τους Θεσσαλονικιους και τους αλλους Ελληνες για μενα ειναι τουλαχιστον υποπτο και αν μη τι αλλο εξυπηρετει αλλοτριους σκοπους.
    Επισης, η Εκκλησια της Ελλαδας οπως και πολλοι χριστιανοι Ελληνες με κινδυνο της ζωης τους εκαναν οτι δεν εκαναν στην υπολοιπη…πολιτισμενη Ευρωπη και το ξερετε ολοι και συ Αμπραβανελ. Επομενως ως ελληνες ειμαστε περηφανοι που κατα το δυνατον βοηθησαμε τους συμπολιτες μας. Για οσους δεν μπορεσαμε να κανουμε κατι αισθανομαστε λυπη αλλα δεν θα ζητησουμε συγγνωμη. Μην τρελλαθουμε κι’ολας. Παν μετρον αριστον.

    Με εκτιμηση,

    Νικος

  14. Abravanel είπε

    1. Dear reader currently this is the only blog which deals with this subject – the total number of sites who deal systematically with Greek Judaism (with the exception of the site of KIS) arrive at the staggering number of three. As far as the question if these problems are worth talking about I would like to believe that establishing a State where the Law prevails and equal rights is not simply lip-service paid to foreigners, is pretty important. Of course you prefer other subjects, which others might find equally unimportant in front of more pressing problems like unemployment. But hey, that’s the beauty of the Internet – if you think I’m not doing enough for Greece you can simply create a site and do it yourself.

    By the way the Jewish Community of this country does more than it’s fair share to help advance the causes of our homeland. The embedded antisemitism though makes the politicians of this country hurriedly disassociate from anything labeled “jewish” as if it carried the plague. Still when we exit the greek frontier they have no trouble cooperating with the various communities on diverse cases, an example was the defacement of the greek flag by a slavic-macedonian artist in Skopje -> http://www.greekembassy.org/embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=19&article=23272

    I can name various other cases but I’m not so sure if this will do any good. Then the turks will rise up, link to this blog and say: hey, there is a huge jewish conspiracy against us; then the greek public opinion shall say: damn you turks, you cannot steal everything – the jews conspire against us and so on… What people fail to understand that each jew loves his own country, just as like a bulgarian loves his own and not serbia just because they too are slavs and orthodox christians.

    2. As far as your greek text is concerned. The comments are open (unless violating the WordPress TOS or trolling) and if you think that the commenter is wrong take it up to him and try to prove that he is wrong.

    But I would like to point out that if Thessaloniki, through it’s Municipality and it’s civil society, refused to condemn the acts of those who betrayed our country then she becomes the heir of their moral inheritance. I shall never accept to let the courage of people like ArchiBissop Damaskinos, Chief of Police Evert, the people of Zakynthos or Katerini serve as a fig-leaf for those who stained their country. Thessaloniki unfortunately is a city which did not excel on humanity, on the contrary – the 12.000 thessaloniceans who looted jewish property (the infamous μεσεγγυούχοι) attest to this. Today’s Thessaloniki is not to blame for this – but it is to blame for the constant effort to delete jewish presence today.

    Nobody ever blamed Greece because it didn’t save more Jews – who knows what we would have done. But I do blame greek authorities like Governor General Simonidis for destroying the jewish cemetery. No nazi forced Greece to claim the land after WW2 and the University of Thessaloniki build it’s campus there. And no nazi forces Greece today to omit uttering a single word on the slaughter of 55.000 of it’s citizens in the school-books.

  15. george είπε

    try this link (after the wal-mart ad),
    dont blame us all for your problems!

  16. george είπε

    try this link:

    http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=6595

  17. Panagiotis είπε

    The problem is not between Jews and Greeks. Some Jews (like abravanel) spend enormous time, trying to find evidence that all people (not only Greeks) are against Jews in some degree. This kind of befavior returns back as a boomerang to jewisth people that don’t have anything to do with this.

    In this blog abravanel is struggling to grow the seed of racism while most comments writen in greek language are not by any way anti-jewish. You can meet people like abravel in all nations supporting all kind of theories but the botomline is the same and it doesn’t matter if the writer is Greek or Jew. The greek goverment in many cases is incompetent and unfair to Greek people as well as to jewish people. It’s not a matter of race and abravanel should know beter.

    To my mind his purpose should be to try and fill the gap between different civilizations like Greeks, Jews etc. Some people, however, seem to be ordered for a different purpose. If he feels that race discrimination takes place in Greece why on earth desn’t he write in Greek language in order to fill the gap between the different civilizations? Because simply he doesn’t care. He writes in english because of the role he is called to play, the same old game of propaganda.

  18. Abravanel είπε

    @ Panagiotis:
    He writes in english because of the role he is called to play, the same old game of propaganda.

    One reason I prefer on writing in english is to avoid trolls and you’re edging towards becoming one. Jewish Greeks are Greeks and you placing Jews vs Greeks is insulting and indicative of your incompetence to perceive them as Greeks.

    I’d also suggest reading a couple more of my posts before passing judgement – when there was need to write in greek I do not fail to do so; damn, even my last post was in greek, while 6 out of my 9 last posts are in greek! I think this sloppiness is quite informative and one can safely deduct that you are keen in finding conspiracies.

  19. Servitoros είπε

    @Panagiotis

    Civilization is just a quite boring computer game by Sid Meier. There is nothing like a Greek or a Jewish Civilization or any other crap derived by Samuel Huntington or others. Firstly, the continuity of Civilizations and Nationalities is constructed, secondly even to cultural, ethnic or religious groups defined as simiral there are huge differences. A Haredi Jew in East London has almost no similarities to an Israelite in Thessaloniki or a Beta Israel Jew living in Jerusalem or a Secular Gay Jew living in New York. The same can be said for Greeks, a Cretan Sheperd has almost no similarities to a Greek American Dinner owner or a Greek Muslim in Comotini or an Athenian upper class lawyer in Athens.

  20. Servitoros είπε

    Edit: the last word meant to be Kolonaki

  21. Athanasios Ioannou είπε

    Heh, heh, case in point: Two Georges, George Tenet (the former director of the U.S. Central Intelligenece Agency) and Giorgos Papandreou. They were both born in the United States, within one year of each other (1953 vs. 1952). George Tenet’s both parents were born in Greece and were decidedly working class. Giorgos’ parents, well we all know who they are, of course, his father was born in Greece and was decidedly upper middle class, his mother born in the U.S. in a middle class family. I am pointing all this to illustrate the point made by Servitoros, that national origin nowdays plays a very small role on how one develops as an individual whereas the broader social setting an individual finds him/herself in is far more important (U.S politics vs. Greek political life in this case).

  22. Now, I’m going to make some particularly sharp remarks.

    I really, REALLY don’t get it. Post-ottoman occupation Greeks (claim to) be Christians (although how much they’re willing to adhere to the Scriptures is very debatable) and, thus, they worship, at least superficially, the Biblical “god” named Yahweh and his son, a carpenter/superman (heck Clark Kent’s daytime job had a much higher profile) named Emmanuel, nicknamed Jesus (Yeshua) Christ, born (?) in Bethlehem and supposedly raised in a city that didn’t exist in the late pre-christian/early christian times and, when it existed (in the 4th century AD), it was merely a hamlet. Jews worship Yahweh and they don’t believe the carpenter/superman was born at all or, if he was born, he was hardly the “Messiah”; Muslims, on the other hand, worship Yahweh, whose name they changed to “Allah” (did he ask for a name change or did they do so arbitrarily?), believe that the carpenter/superman was born, but they don’t believe he was the son of any god; instead, they believe he was a prophet.

    Now, all these three communities have one god in common: Yahweh/Allah. All three religious communities share the idea that their religious group should prevail and that the infidels/goyim/gentiles/whatever should be either converted or put to death. Then why on earth do they kill and persecute each other? For crying out loud, “god” exists as much as Humpty Dumpty, Snow White (NOT Snowy White), Cinderella, Little Red Riding Hood, Hansel & Gretchel etc. How can someone believe in the “words” of someone that doesn’t exist? Just because some whack jobs with a good hand at “miracle”-working (i.e. prophets) and with a great ability to cast threats in a menacing tone reminiscent of Murray the Evil Talking Skull from “The Curse Of Monkey Island” said so? What are they, stupid?

    And, what’s worse, we have the “chosen people” problem. First, we had the prophets saying that Yahweh’s chosen people were the Jews; this claim is even more ridiculous than I’d be if I said that, last night, I shared the bed with Pamela Anderson, Ramey Klark, Beyonce and the late Ann Nicole Smith, whom I brought (yeah, right) back from the dead by invoking the Great Cthulhu and engaged in some steamy sessions of sex that would make every prophet, monk and priest supposedly explode in a super-duper-huge atomic mushroom of holy anger (although most of every religion’s clergy is so perverted that they’ll do anything to anything and anyone: human, animal, object, fungus or vegetable). Just as ridiculous is the claim that Greeks became Yahweh’s chosen people because the Jews – supposedly – killed the carpenter/superman.

    WAIT A MINUTE…

    Does this mean that those Jihad-crazy early christian vandal monks killed Greeks and destroyed their civilization because Yahweh wanted to make them his chosen people? And exactly how did the Jews kill the imaginary carpenter/superman? AFAIK, the imaginary godman was crucified by the Romans, using a Roman execution method – and Pilate wouldn’t even bother to give the guy a fair trial, as he put even children to the cross without so much of a hearing; the dude was a monster in the same class as Vlad “Dracula” Tepes and Pol Pot.

    And even so, since it was “god’s plan” for his baby boy to get killed, why is ANY human held responsible for this? The way I see it, they were all just pawns.

    I know I’m beginning to sound a bit like George Carlin, but I can’t help it. This whole religious hate thing is an insult to my intelligence. I can’t accept that someone’s faith makes him or her superior or inferior to anyone else in any way. Such concepts are the basis for fascism and racism and should be expelled from people’s minds – and never taught again. Jews are NOT superior or inferior to anyone. Greeks and Christians are NOT superior or inferior to anyone. Muslims are NOT superior or inferior to anyone – and feel free to continue the list, as it can become longer than China’s Great Wall.

    And, of course, I can’t accept the “chosen people” idea’s main ancillary: the Martha Vourtsi Syndrome. But more on that later, as I’m still writing a feature on it.

  23. paok vandal είπε

    re den leme ton xristo gay evraious leme ta skoulikia (aris) evraioi gay

  24. Paul είπε

    Abravanel don’t understand you..

    Why does it make somebody a bad person to notice distinctions between peoples?…Jews as not Greek? Notice I said NOT Greek meaning not ETHNICALLY GREEK..not meaning not Greek citizens and certainly not meaning NON-human or subhuman.

    Most Jews I have met have told me that Yes there is a religion of Judaism but one is always a Jew by ethnicity..most American and Israeli Jews and even religious Jews teach this (if your mom is Jewish your Jewish even if your an atheist, convert to Yoshka the bastard, as Jesus is sometimes affectionately called, you marry a shiksa, a derogatory term for non Jewish women, etc., are no practicing Kosher rules and so on…you are still Jewish but a “bad” Jew because you are not practicing Judaism)

    Saying Jews are not Greeks is like me saying Polish people are not Greek or Gypsies are not Greek or ALbanians are not Greek. They are not Greek..Greek is an ethnicity. Most Jews themselves define themselves by both ethnicity and religion.

    Of course many Jews absorb some of the local gene pool through intermarriage but for the most part Greek Jews are ethnic if not religiously Jewish who live in Greece and most of whom are descended from people who moved into Greece many years ago and have a long history here.

    Lets stop confusing citizenship = nationality with ethnicity = blood/kin and religion.

  25. Paul είπε

    And pointing out this distinction does not mean I have ill will towards Greek Jews.

    Perhaps Greek Jews do not view things this way…meaning they do not agree with most rabbis..or at least what I am told most rabbis teach about …who is a jew..(that its an ethnic thing and a religious thing)…this would be a departure from even most secular Israeli and American Jewish thought..(Greek Jews thinking of themselves as ethnically Greek but simply religiously Jewish as opposed to as an ethnicity).

  26. [...] να παραμείνει τέτοια – άλλωστε ας μην ξεχνάμε οτι οι ίδιοι άνθρωποι που πετούν το “πούστης” ως βρισ…, όπως είδαμε στην περίπτωση των οπαδών του [...]

  27. harrysmatic είπε

    Η γραμμη οτι οι Εβραιοι δεν ειναι εθνος αλλα θρησκεια,ειναι η απολυτη προδοσια.

    Γι αυτο,οι καθαροαιμοι Εβραιαραδες πρεπει να παντρευονται την Εβραιοπουλα της διπλανης πορτας
    & να κανουν πολλα παιδια ,
    τουλαχιστο 4,
    για να αντισταθμισουν τις απωλειες λογω προδοσιας…

    Ειναι δε καλυτερο τα σαπια κυτταρα να αποβαλλονται ως περιττωματα απο το εθνος των Εβραιων…

    Να γινονται Σολωμοι,Κοραηδες,Μαρξ κ.ο.κ…

  28. esquivel είπε

    i need to express my curiosity on why do greeks hate so much on jews, turks, americans and not on the welsh, or german (we admire the germans even though they were responsible for great harm in greece). i believe this is hardly any coincidence and my view is fortified by the fact that greeks are very little influenced by crap tv such as SKY and BBC (all tv is crap but meh) and can thus maintain some custom and dignity as a nation (although tv channels are extremely persistent on promoting a lifestyle that would suit them to pass on any beliefs they may wish). anyway i am not communist, i hardly ever watch the news, have lived abroad for over a decade and am mates with some jews. i just do not believe that all that graffiti is a coincidence, considering that israel is very,very far away from greece (something like the americans hating on the vietnamese or the japs or the iraqis and declaring war although they have geographically nothing to do with these countries). sorry for the rant please dont abduct and dump my body in some deep sea, im too scared and so are lot of other people who would happily lay some graffiti, even on their own property

  29. esquivel είπε

    episis, to pust…is ine vrisia, k ipodiloni tin idiotita ton omofilofilon na pezun pus……tia hehe

  30. Abravanel είπε

    greeks hate so much on jews

    Greeks do NOT hate Jews; it would be a gross exaggeration. The problem is the complete and utter tollerance towards to the sizable minority that indeed hates them.

  31. periergopoulos είπε

    Μπαγιάτικο ποστ (2,5 χρόνια παλιό!), αλλά αφού τώρα το είδα, ας πω κι εγώ την εξυπνάδα μου.

    Το προσωνύμιο “Εβραίοι” για τους Αρειανούς σήμερα μπορεί να αντανακλά τον ενστικτώδη αντισημιτισμό του Έλληνα, αλλά στην πραγματικὄτητα ξεκινά από την αιώνια κόντρα προσφύγων – αυτοχθόνων. Ως γνωστόν, σε όλη την Ελλάδα οι ντόπιοι συχνά αποκαλούσαν υποτιμητικά τους Μικρασιάτες ή τους Πολίτες “Τούρκους”, “τουρκόσπορους” κτλ χτυπώντας τους στην ευαίσθητη χορδή της ελληνικότητας και της καθαρότητας. Ακόμα και σήμερα όταν η ΑΕΚ(άρα) :), ο ΠΑΟΚ, ο Πανιώνιος, η Νίκη Βόλου παίζουν εκτός έδρας, οι αντίπαλοι οπαδοί αρχίζουν να βρίζουν εθιμοτυπικά την Τουρκιά.
    Η απάντηση των προσφύγων, εδώ των οπαδών του ΠΑΟΚ, είναι στο ίδιο επίπεδο και στοχεύει να μειώσει εθνικά τον εχθρό. “Τούρκοι ε; δηλ. εσείς που όταν εμείς φτάσαμε εδώ ζούσατε ανάμεσα σε τόσες χιλιάδες Εβραίους είστε καθαρότεροι; Τούρκοι εμείς, Οβραίοι εσείς!”. Κάπως έτσι φαίνεται να ξεκίνησε η ιστορία.

    Ενδιαφέρουσα παράμετρος: σήμερα οι ΠΑΟΚτσήδες κατηγορούν τους Αρειανούς για συνεργασία με τους Γερμανούς κατά την κατοχή (γι’ αυτό και “σκουλίκια” που είναι το πιο γνωστό παρατσούκλι των κιτρινόμαυρων).
    Έτσι τα ποδοσφαιρικά συνθήματα ακολουθούν τις ιστορικές εξελίξεις. Μεταπολεμικά, η εβραϊκή κοινότητα ήταν ξεκληρισμένη, άρα η κατηγορία της επιμειξίας δεν είχε πια αξία, και έπρεπε να βγει μια άλλη ρετσινιά που να σχετίζεται πάντα με το εθνικό φρόνημα του αιώνιου αντίπαλου.

  32. Abravanel είπε

    Ενδιαφέρον και συμφωνώ μαζί σου αλλά υπάρχει ένα μεγάλο πρόβλημα: προσωπική μου έρευνα έδειξε ότι η προσωνυμία “εβραίοι” είναι πρόσφατη, τουλάχιστον της δεκαετίας του ’80. Παίκτες του Αρη του ’70, γηραιότεροι οπαδοί ΠΑΟΚ/Αρη/Ηρα μου διέψευσαν κατηγορηματικά αυτό το γεγονός και μόνο 30ρηδες μου επιβεβαίωσαν την ύπαρξη του. Είναι αδύνατον αυτοί οι οπαδοί να γνωρίζουν για την εβραϊκή κοινότητα της πόλης γιατί απλά η προσπάθεια απάλειψη της μνήμης της είχε πλέον αποδώσει καρπούς, (δεν ρητορεύω, αναφέρω απλώς το γεγονός). Πώς είναι δυνατόν τότε να εμφανίζεται μόλις το ΄80 ; Προσωπική μου εκτίμηση, και εδώ μπορεί να σφάλλω, είναι οτι όσο και λογικοφανής είναι η δική σου εξήγηση, στην πραγματικότητα ο όρος είναι μια απλή ύβρις και δεν συνδέεται με το εβραϊκό παρελθόν της πόλης.

    Πάντως το αστείο είναι ότι μεταξύ των χριστιανικών ομάδων της πόλης ο Αρης είχε την πιο έντονη εβραϊκή συμμετοχή, ο Ηρακλής είχε πολύ μικρότερη μιας και ανήκε στην μικρή γηγενή ελληνορθόδοξη κοινότητα και καθόλου ο ΠΑΟΚ λόγω της προσφυγικής του βάσης. Αρα όντως ο “πιο εβραίος” ήταν ο Αρης, άσχετα αν αυτό δεν έχει να κάνει με την σημερινή προσωνυμία του.

    Μια ακόμα πληροφορία, άσχετη με τους αρειανούς, αλλά που την βρήκα κατά την διάρκεια της έρευνας: όλοι με τους οποίους μίλησα εντοπίζουν τον όρο “τούρκος” από δεκαετίες πριν, μάλιστα ένας ηρακληδέας μου τόνισε οτι μετά το πογκρόμ των Σεπτεμβριανών το ’55 ξεκίνησε. Αυτό όμως που όλοι συμφωνούν είναι οτι βασικό ρόλο έπαιξε η τουρκοφωνία των καραμανλήδων προσφύγων που αποτέλεσαν την πλειοψηφία των οπαδών – όπως μου είπε ένας παππούς: “Ολο γιασσασίν ΠΑΟΚ φώναζαν, τι να τους λέγαμε;”

  33. periergopoulos είπε

    Μην υποτιμάς τις ικανότητες των φανατικών. Όταν θέλουν να την πουν σε κάποιον ψάχνουν για τα καλά τα κιτάπια τους ;)
    Πάντως, το ότι οι παλιοί φίλαθλοι δεν έχουν ακούσει τίποτα περί “Εβραίων” εξηγείται από το ότι το οπαδικό κίνημα με τα παρελκόμενά του (σύνδεσμοι οργανωμένων, θύρες των ultras, συνθημάτα και βρισιές με καθολική αποδοχή) είναι γέννημα των δεκαετιών του 70 και του 80. Πάντως ενδιαφέρον θα έχει να ψάξει κανείς πώς απαντούσαν γενικά και όχι μόνο ποδοσφαιρικά οι πρόσφυγες στις κοροϊδίες των ντόπιων Θεσσαλονικέων κατά τη δεκαετία του ’30.
    Όσο για τα Σεπτεμβριανά, ξέρω καλά ότι με την άφιξη νέας φουρνιάς προσφύγων τα ρατσιστικά στερεότυπα αναβίωσαν σε όλη τη χώρα, αλλά δεν πρέπει να δημιουργήθηκαν τότε.

    Πάντως για να πούμε και του … ποδοσφαιρόφιλου το δίκιο, σήμερα αυτά τα συνθήματα λέγονται μάλλον μηχανικά και χωρίς ιδιαίτερο χρωματισμό. Φίλος μου με καταγωγή από τη Σμύρνη και την Πόλη είναι φανατικός οπαδός του Άρη και δεν έχει πρόβλημα να θυμίζει στους ΠΑΟΚτσήδες τις “πολυπολιτισμικές” τους ρίζες, ενώ έχω συναντήσει και άρρωστο γάβρο από τη Δράμα που αποκαλεί “Βούλγαρους” τους φιλάθλους των ομάδων της Μακεδονίας (ίσως και της πόλης του) :P

  34. periergopoulos είπε

    Πάντως, η λέξη “πάντως” μου αρέσει πολύ :)

  35. Abravanel είπε

    Πολύ ενδιαφέρουσα και σωστή η παρατήρηση περί της δημιουργίας των ultras την δεκαετία του ’80.

    Πάντως, ( :-) ), οφείλω να ομολογήσω οτι βρήκα διασκεδαστική και διδακτική την προσπάθεια των οπαδών του Αρη, μέσω των οπαδικών τους εντύπων, να “αποτινάξουν” την κατηγορία. Διασκεδαστική γιατί βγάζει σε λίγο απελπισία, διδακτική γιατί χάρη σε αυτούς έμαθα σπουδαίες λεπτομέρειες όπως οτι ο Σαλαμό Αρούχ στο Triumph of the Spirit με τον Νταφό του ΄90 ανήκε στον ΑΣ Αρη. Πως τα φέρνει η τύχη, ένας από τους σημαντικότερους σύγχρονους παράγοντες του Αρη ήταν ο Λέλος Αρούχ και εκτός και αν κάνω λάθος ένας από τους παίκτες στις μικρές ομάδες είναι ο Ιακώβ Αρούχ, (αν και φέτος γύρισε στην Μακάμπι από ότι βλέπω στο Διαδίκτυο).

    Για τις διαφορές μεταξύ γηγεγών και προσφύγων υπάρχουν ορισμένες εργασίες αν και το θέμα αποφεύγεται, παλαιότερα λόγω αντιπροσφυγικής ρητορικής του κράτους, σήμερα λόγω των επιλογών των προσφύγων της εποχής. Πάντως ενδεικτικό ήταν οτι η Μεικτή Θεσσαλονίκης που αντιμετώπιζε την Μεικτή Αθηνών έβγαινε από τις δυο παλαιότερες ομάδες της πόλης, την Μακαμπί και τον Ηρακλή, (και οι δυο ιδρύθηκαν το 1908 και είναι η παλαιότερες, εν ενεργεία, ομάδες της Θεσσαλονίκης).

  36. Tom είπε

    Maybe I am deviating a bit – I have not read all the comments on this post- but in the hothead football fan’s universe, association of a club with Jewish support or investment is always good reason for insults. For example, Tottenham Hotspur has a big Jewish support due to proximity with predominantly Jewish neighbourghoods in North London and, unless I am mistaken, their current owner is also Jewish. In several games of Tottenham, a section of the opposition’s fans may chant the disgusting “I would rather be a Paki than a Yid”. In Amsterdam, the city’s Jewish football fans have an affinity for Ajax, and during games opposing fans usually do a hissing sound so as to mimic gas chambers… Chilling, isn’t it?

  37. Η συνεισφορά μου στην διαπλοκή των ταυτοτήτων με τις ποδοσφαιρικές ομάδες της θεσσαλονίκης, εκτός από αργοπορημένη,είναι και ασήμαντη. Ωστόσο, την καταθέτω. Στις αρχές ή τα μέσα της δεκαετίας του ’80, ανάμεσα στους οργανωμένους φιλάθλους του Άρη έκαναν την εμφάνισή τους πυρήνες σκίνχεντς. Χαιρετούσαν ναζιστικά και τραγουδούσαν την γνωστή Έρικα με ελληνικούς στίχους όπως:”‘Άρη, Άρη σ’ αγαπώωω…”. Είχε τότε εκφραστεί ο φόβος -μέσω ενός ρεπορτάζ της κρατικής τηλεόρασης, αν θυμάμαι καλά- για διείσδυση των νεοναζί στο ποδόσφαιρο, μιας και τέτοια σουσούμια είχαν εμφανιστεί και στον Παναθηναικό. Το φαινόμενο εξαφανίστηκε έκτοτε. Το παράδοξο όμως ενός συλλόγου που ελκύει οργανωμένους -ή μη- ναζί ενώ συγχρόνως ποτέ στην ιστορία του δεν απέκλεισε τους εβραίους από το δυναμικό του σε αθλητές και παράγοντες -κι’ όλο αυτό σε μια πόλη που όλοι ξέρουν τα πάντα για όλους- μου κάνει μεγάλη εντύπωση.

    Τείνω να συνταχθώ με τον Περιεργόπουλο και του ποδοσφαιρόφιλου το δίκηο (#33). Η ελαφρότητα με την οποία κάποιοι ενστερνίζονται αντισημιτικές ή φασιστικές θέσεις ή και τα δύο είναι αβάσταχτη. Αλλά δεν ξέρω αν αυτό είναι παρήγορο (αφού η επιπολαιότητα δεν μπορεί να συγκροτήσει απειλή) ή ανησυχητικό (γιατί η επιπολαιότητα μαζί με την κρίση είναι απρόβλεπτη).

  38. R. είπε

    Πρώτη φορά ακούω για ελληνικό αντισημιτισμό και έχω μείνει άναυδη. Αν είναι να αναλύεις συνθήματα χούλιγκανς και μετά από αυτό να γενικεύεις για τη νοοτροπία των Ελλήνων (και θα θεωρούσα ότι οι Εβραίοι της Ελλάδος θεωρούν τους εαυτούς τους Έλληνες – ή όχι;), μόνο σε γελοιότητες μπορείς να καταλήξεις. Οι Έλληνες έχουν διάφορες εδέες για ‘ζιονιστικά λόμπυ’στην Αμερική που προκαλούν πολλούς από τους ιμπεριαλιστικούς πολέμους (και δεν έχουν και τελείως άδικο), αλλά δεν έχω ακούσει ποτέ στη ζωή μου κάποιον να χαρακτηρίζεται αρνητικά λόγω εβραικής καταγωγής. ‘Αλλο το να είσαι μέλος μια μικρής ομάδας, των οποίβ τα μέλη μετριο΄θνται στα δάκτυλα του ενός χεριού- που εμπλέκεται σε παγκόσμιες πλεκτάνες και άλλο να είσαι μέλος ενός έθνους. Αν είναι να αναλύσεις τα αποφθέγματα του κάθε ανεγκέφαλου που γράφει σε τοίχους, θα πρέπει ίσως ανα ανασκεθάσεις όλό του το ιδεολογικό μωσαικό, να δεις τι άνθρωπος είναι. Αν στρέφεται εναντίον των Εβραίων, τότε πιθανότητα είναι επίσης ρατσιστής με κάθε άλλο άτομο διαφορετικής καταγωγής, φύλου, ηλικίας, μορφωτικού επιπέδου και παντελώς ακατάλληλος για να χρησιμοποιηθεί ως αντιπροσωπευτικό δείγμα των Ελλήνως (και επιμένω, δεν θα χαρακτήριζες τον εαυτό σου Έλληνα επίσης – δηλαδή όλοι εμείς οι θπόλοιποι είμαστε ανιψιοί και ανιψιές του Περικλή;;;). Με τρομάζουν οι εύκολοι χαρακτηρισμοί και με τρομάζει η αναζήτηση προβλημάτων και ανίερων καταστάσεων εκεί όπου δεν υπάρχουν. Όσο για το Β’ Πακκόσμιο Πόλεμο: δεν ξέρω τι αντίσταση υπήρξε ή όχι στην περισυλλογή των μελών της Εβριακής κοινότητας από τους Ναζί, αλλά η χώρα είχε βιώσει δύο πολέμους εναντίον Ιταλών και Γερμανών, ακριβώς επειδή ΕΝΑΝΤΙΩΝΟΤΑΝ στην αρρωστημένη ιδεολογία του απάνθρωπου αυτού συστήματος.

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