Saving the Jews of Katerini during the Shoah
Posted by Abravanel, the Blog στο 02/09/2008
Katerini is a small town on the foothills of Mt.Olympus (map). In 1940 it housed a population of around 17.000 people and in this number were included 30 to 40 Jews. The story of their fate during the Holocaust/ Shoah has never reached the surface despite the fact that it is one that renders honour to the part of Greece that denied collaborating with the Germans or gaining profit from the plight of their jewish compatriots.
At the eve of WW2 Katerini housed a population of 7 Jewish families that mainly came from Larissa’s important Jewish Community. Themselves did not constitute legally a Community and were dependent of Thessaloniki’s and Larissa’s synagogues and rabbis. Although of sephardic origin most, they spoke both djudeo-espanyol and greek fluently and were well integrated into the town. Some were small time peddlers who went around the villages to sell clothes, pots etc. A couple had small grocery shops in town. And a couple more were metal artisans. Despite the common rumors that circulated inside the town, like the blood libel where Jews used the blood of christian children to make matza for Pessach, there was virtually no strife.
On October 28th 1940 Italians invade Greece and the male Jews of Katerini leave the town to join the Greek Army – many of them get wounded, while we do not know of any dead. On April 1941 the German Wehrmacht crushes the greek resistance and Greece becomes occupied by Germany, Italy and Bulgaria. Like Thessaloniki 15 months of relative calm follow while Katerini suffers much less of the famine which becomes endemic in Athens. This period fisnishes when the first anti-jewish measures are adopted in Thessaloniki and serve as an alarm for the Jews in the rest of the country.
The arrest of the whole Jewish Community of Thessaloniki, the institution of the 3 ghettos inside Thessaloniki is followed by german orders to arrest all the Jews in german occupied territories. Katerini is just a small town and warrants only a tiny german presence, so for the order the civilian telegraph service is used. The telegrapher reads with disbelief the telegram which orders the arrests and decides… He rushes and informs his Jewish friend David Iosafat and tells him he would stall the telegram for as much as possible, maybe even 24 hours. Immediately the heads of the families gather and take a vote – the result was to escape to the mountains where the Resistance already existed. Two brothers, Michel Ammar and his brother decide to stay. The others leave all their belongings to their neighbours and head, in horse-drawn carriages, for Mt.Olympous which was already was EAM (communist led Resistance) territory. It should be noted that all this happened with the tacit agreement of Police Chief Papageorgeiou which should have helped or performed the arrests, (although we do not know if he was the one that eventually captured the Ammar brothers). Also Mayor A.Vasileiadis and the german comander Eval are rumored to have known; still their role is not certain and in any case peripheral to the one of the anonymous telegraphist – a true Righteous Among the Nations. The brothers who remained were arrested, sent to Thessaloniki and then to Auschwitz – one of them survived and emigrated to Israel after the war. Other sources tell us also of another person who remained and was shot when arrived in Thessaloniki.
Up in the mountains life was not easy. Local peasants other times were glad to help, while others pretended the «jewish gold» or even robbed them. Eventually the men joined the Resistance while the women tried to keep alive their children working in any way possible. Some of them died, either during germans incursions or because of the hardships, (a common fate for both Christians and Jewish Greeks of the area).
The end of the war found them with losses but alive, much better than the total extermination their brothers had faced in Thessaloniki less than 100km away. Their return to Katerini was not a smooth one because of the Civil War between communists and royalists in Greece, (ironically them being Jews protected them since the communists acknowledged their participation in the Resistance while the royalists acknowledged that this was their only way to survive). Still their property like homes or shops was returned to them, although of course mobile goods like cloths, pottery were lost.
Civil War forced many Jews of Katerini to move out. Some of them returned, although eventually all of them moved to the bigger urban centers like Thessaloniki or Athens. Today to the best of my knowledge (and some internet searching) a Jewish family still lives in the town of Katerini.
A (lengthy) epilogue:
I began writing this epilogue as an answer to those who claim stupidly that «all Greeks saved the Jews» or that «Greeks collaborated with the Germans in deporting the Jews». I cannot and shall not accept the courage of the Righteous to serve to cover the evil of others who collaborated with the germans and after the war worked to loot and erase jewish presence. Also I dislike the easy judgments passed on my entire country, based on the deeds of some criminals. What happened in Katerini is what real people did to save the jews but what happened in Katerini did not happen everywhere.
The anonymous telegrapher from Katerini is not the same as the Governor of Macedonia Simonidis who pressed the germans to have the permission to destroy half a million jewish tombs and categorically refused to utter a single word after the Jews pleaded with him. The civilian authorities of Katerini cannot be compared to the Mayor of Corfu who issued a declaration of thanking the Germans for getting rid of the Jews. Nor can the people of Katerini who did not loot jewish property, can be compared to the 12.000 thessaloniceans who officially (the infamous μεσσεγυούχοι who even formed an association to defend themselves from their victims!) looted jewish property and can described as nothing less as collaborators. Exploiting the memory of these people, to whom Greek Judaism shall remain eternally grateful, is nothing less of a sacrilege and pure hypocrisy.
Official historiography and greek public opinion is quick in accepting the eternal honor the Righteous bestowed Greece. But they should be even more quick in condemning the acts of persons who betrayed the greek people and profited from the extermination of their fellow greeks – even if this means staining the «reputation» of a city. Only accepting what happened then and stating clearly that these are not the values which represent them today and transforming this certainty into deeds is the only way out. Failure to do so make them moral heirs of the evil inheritance of these collaborators – nothing less. If they have problems interpreting what «help the Jews» means, let them look at Katerini…
It is unfortunate that the staggering majority of Greece’s Jews found themselves in a city which did not help them and a small but significant part was glad to get rid of them; while actively and of it’s own initiative worked to erase their memory while they were becaming ashes in the crematoria of Auschwitz. It is unfortunate because it overshadows the efforts of many more Christian Greeks who altruistically helped their jewish compatriots. These were not few and Jews of Athens, Katerini, Volos, Larissa and many other places know them are shall forever be thankful to them. Even in Thessaloniki, amidst the indifference, Righteous ones arose and did what their faith and heart commanded them. And while others refused to speak at no personal expense, others like ArchiBishop Damaskinos risked their own neck to save them. Only plain stupidity or downright malignancy can forget these people and declare that an entire country is the worst offenders the Jewish Greeks have ever known.
But personally I shall never let the sacrifice of these men serve to mask the evilness of the others, which is denied in Greece today. There can be no «greeks saved the jews», a feel-good, empty proposition which serves to cancel individual responsibilities and individual valor. Hell, sometimes I wonder what those people would have to say when paralleled with collaborators, thieves and murderers – I imagine they would spit them and then spit on the people who dare make this comparison.
This post shall serve only as the beginning of a series of posts which shall review clearly the story of the Shoah in Greece, so that the disgusting exploitation of the Righteous one seizes. And again I repeat: if someone has problems interpreting what «help the Jews» means, let them look at Katerini…
Sources:
«In Memoriam», Ιωσήφ Νεχαμά 1974 ΙΚΘ
«The Story of the Greek Jews During the Second World War», Michael Matsas 2007 Pella Pub.
Περιοδικό Χρονικά, ΚΙΣ
«Ισραηλιτική Κοινότητα Θεσσαλονίκης», ΙΚΘ
Περιοδικό Αλεφ, IKA
(Κατερίνη, Ολοκαύτωμα, Σοά, εβραίοι, ισραηλίτες, Αουσβιτς, Ιωσαφάτ, Αμμάρ, Παπαγεωργείου, Βασιλειάδη)
Abravanel, the Blog 
Athanasios Ioannou said
This is very interesting and I am wondering whether the fact that the Jews of Katerini, individually and collectively, were probably neither wealthy nor did they own any desirable property, was one of the reasons that saved them. The Jews in Thessaloniki owned businesses and homes which their Christian compatriots were all too eager to collaborate and bargain with the Germans in order to take over and we all know (thanks, not in small part, to your efforts Mr. Abravanel) what happened to the Jewish cemetery there. It is remarkable and disturbing what greed and envy coupled with antisemitism will motivate otherwise «good» people to do. I have heard of similar stories from my mother’s family regarding the Jews of Epirus, where those who had no homes or businesses worth stealing were sometimes helped or, at least, not ratted on by their Christian neighbors whereas those Jews thought to have gold and jewelry or desirable property were the first to be turned over to the Germans when they took over after the Italian surrender.
Xenos said
There are good, evil and plain indifferent people within every society, culture and country. And in every period of history. You are right to commemorate and laud those who behaved with honour. It is also right to refuse to allow those who did nothing, or embraced evil, to hide behind the skirts of decent people.
offshore said
Ούσα καθηγήτρια αγγλικών δεν έχω πρόβλημα να διαβάζω το blog σου, άλλα πραγματικά πιστεύω πως θα σε διάβαζαν πολλοί περισσότεροι αν έγραφες στα ελληνικά. Τα άρθρα σου είναι ενδιαφέροντα αλλά δεν μπορούν να διαβαστούν από αναγνώστες οι οποίοι δεν είναι αγγλομαθείς. Είναι κρίμα γιατί το θέμα είναι να γνωρίσουν οι Έλληνες τους Εβραίους (πρώτα). Εκτός αν δεν έχω καταλάβει ακόμα το σκοπό του blog.
Υ.Γ Τι θα γίνει με εκείνες τις συνταγές :)
Abravanel said
@ Athanasios Ioannou
While it certainly helped, I’m in doubt whether it has played a peripheral role or indeed is a key concept in understanding the Shoah. In my opinion (but bear in mind that it is only an opinion and I am open to discussion) it is not the main reason behind the so diverse attitudes during the German Occupation. If you see the antijewish prejudice in Corfu and in Thessaloniki before the war, you’ll see that economic reasons have certainly helped but were never pivotal. Economic antagonism certainly helped small refugee merchants to «understand» the usefulness of EEE but the «foreign agent» accusation (Jews allying with the Bulgarians, Jews bringing Communism to Greece) was not a pretext but a true mass-agitator.
In any case I would welcome any anecdotal stories you might have, either here or privately in my email!
@ Xenos
As I’ve said in the past my family had seen both collaborators and Righteous ones – the latter have and continue to enjoy the eternal gratitude of the Jewish Greeks. The former still need to be dealt with – especially in these times when a conscious effort is being made to condone them.
@ offshore
Ο σκοπός του ιστολογίου ήταν στην αρχή να χρησιμοποιηθεί ως depot για διάφορα κείμενα τα οποία θα μιλούσαν για θέματα που δεν υπάρχουν online. Γι’αυτό τα κείμενα μου είναι συνήθως ξερά, μεγάλα και τελείως ενάντια στο ύφος ενός ιστολογίου. Ακριβώς γι’αυτό το λόγο ήταν απαραίτητο να είναι στα αγγλικά λόγω της έλλειψης ύπαρξης ενός κοινού που ενδιαφερόνταν – είναι ενδεικτικό ότι είναι μετρημένοι στα δάκτυλα του ενός χεριού οι ακαδημαικοί που ασχολούνται με τον Ελληνικό Εβραισμό ενώ στο εξωτερικό γίνεται συχνά thesis theme. Το πως εξελίχθηκε το ιστολόγιο και τον κόσμο που έχει φέρει δεν το περίμενα και ακόμα σκέφτομαι πως να τον αντιμετωπίσω. :)
Και συνταγές έχω έτοιμες, και πολλά ακόμη θέματα στα ελληνικά. Απλώς με πρόλαβε η επικαιρότητα και μετά αντιδρώντας στα σχόλια πολλών θέλησα να γράψω για την Κατερίνη. :)
Athanasios Ioannou said
First off my apologies to Offshore for not writing in Greek but my PC is set up with an English language keyboard and it becomes very tedious very soon trying to write in Greek. Mr. Abravanel: I suppose you are correct in that economic antagonisms or just plain greed would not be sufficient by themselves to prompt people to instigate or assist or participate in crimes of this magnitude. The «ideologues» who wanted to get rid of the Jews would certainly not need any justification. But I do think that greed did prompt some (many?) people who although certainly not friends of their Jewish compatriots they may not have been motivated enough by antisemitic ideology to participate actively in their arrest and eventual murder. I suspect that among the good people of Katerini there were probably quite a few who disliked their Jewish neighbors for no reason other than that they were Jews. Yet they did not take the next step, which would be to assist the Germans with arresting them and my supposition, based, admittedly, on sparse information, more lore than data actually, is that there was no big reward to be had from turning in the Jews, other than some hyperinflated Katohika millions; no pots of gold coins to be stolen, no nice house to be appropriated, profitable stores and business to be looted, no huge cemetery to be razed and built over.
Athanasios Ioannou said
P.S. I should have indicated that the «pots of gold coins» were more imaginary than real. Although many Jews in pre-WWII Greece were relatively well off, few had the sort of wealth rumored to be buried in the basements of Jewish homes. Stories I heard from older relatives of my mother’s had to do with people breaking into Jewish homes in Ioannina, Arta, Preveza, after their occupants had been carted away by the Germans or had fled to the mountains, and digging in basements to find these pots of gold lires, invariably leaving with dirty but empty hands. Mr. Abravanel, you certainly know the history of Greek Jews better than I, a non-Jew, is this not the case?
Abravanel said
Greed did have a role – an important one – not to be questioned. Exemplary remains the looting of the Jewish-owned paper enterprises in Thessaloniki and of the bookshops (D.Christianopoulos mentions Giorgos Vosniadis from the Pyrsos Bookshop participating in the looting of Molcho). You are correct and I agree with you that (with the exception of very small fringe elements like EEE) greed probably was probably the number one factor that led many to welcome the deportations – this given the fact that admittedly in Greece the antisemitic prejudice was limited only to some places and much less energetic than the one existing in other countries like Poland or Ucraine.
This holds valid in all of Greece but with local variations. Eg the cemetery issue in Thessaloniki was more about finally completing the process of hellenizing the city. In Zante (Ζάκυνθος) on the other hand the totality of the Jews were saved despite greed and despite prejudice, while in Corfu the zeal of the authorities superseded the will of simply appropriating of jewish property
As far as if the «gold depots» they were real: they were real all right but not gold and neither hidden under the mattress. They were the industries and apartments of the wealthy Jews and this looting went under daylight; we even know the names of those participated at least in Thessaloniki – this thanks to the Association of Depositories in Thessaloniki (σύλλογος μεσεγγυούχων) who represented the 12.000 thessaloniceans who had acquired through the germans the land of the Thessalonikis’ Jews and did not want to return it.
On the other hand thinking of what you wrote I may need to concede to greed a more important role, albeit not exactly in the way you intend it. The reason is that I remember the rush to dig inside the graves (of the Thessaloniki cemetery) during and after the war in hopes to find gold buried together with the dead as if the they were egyptian Pharaohs. The christians of Thessaloniki lived side by side with jews and knew how immensely poor the vast majority was but still they dug – a powerful proof of the strength of the imaginary over reality. So it is not exactly the tangible wealth of the Jews that played a key role but the perceived one.
This perception was influenced heavily by local conditions. That’s why there are very frequent the cases of christian neighbours safeguarding the property of their deported neighbours, while in other cases the neighbours asked of their own initiative to take whatever they could. For how the ones who looted felt take a look here. (By the way it is extremely interesting to see how the Jews are presented by the author and how their extermination seems inevitable – the funny thing is that abroad Jewish Greeks are considered exactly the opposite! But more on this another time.)
By the way a tip if you permit me: 70% of those who claimed after the war to have found «Jewish gold» are simply lying to cover their own failure in finding the treasure, the other 30% were black-market merchants who tried to justify their illogical acquiring of wealth during the war. ;)
Xenos said
Just depressing…simply depressing, to read about the superstitions and stupidity of Greeks. The problem is that little has changed since the murder of the Thessaloniki Jews, and Greeks congratulate themselves on how well they behaved during that period. Just depressing…
Athanasios Ioannou said
Is it not the case that in most countries of occupied Europe (Denmark being one possible, albeit debatable, exception) the non-Jewish citizens in their majority turned a blind eye towards the mistreatment the deportations and the killing of their Jewish compatriots. A minority assisted the Germans with the occupation tasks, including helping them solve the «Jewish question» while another minority opposed the Germans and offered assistance and sometimes refuge to the Jews. It is my sense that the collaborators outnumbered those actively resisting pretty much everywhere, in spite of the post-WWII mythology of broad resistance. Also, many of those actively opposing the Germans did not really bother lending a helping hand towards the Jews, so resistance is not synonymous with assistance. Greece was no exception. But, as many have pointed out, what is unique here is the refusal by the official Greek State and the vast majority of the population to acknowledge these facts after the war was over, and instead appropriate the courageous behavior of the very few, even if these righteous few did include some prominent personalities like Archbishop Damaskinos, Athens chief of police Evert, Zakynthos Mayor (Karrer, I think), essentially to absolve of their responsibilities those who had collaborated actively with the Germans. But, as the Greek proverb says, «One swallow does not make Spring».
Paul said
SO we are in the middle of an occupation and because ALL Greeks did not do MORE for Jews you are going to focus on the collaborators.
My father and his parents were starving in athens due to the british blockade and the Germans taking their food. And not only them but many other people..get really.. yes the collaborators are dispicable and should have been brought to justice. But with you its always MORE should have been done….
Thats like me saying the Jews of Istanbul in 1955 should have done more to help their Greek neighbours during the pogroms against the Greeks when in fact the mobs attacked armenians and jews as well as their main targets Greeks. Of course in that case those Jews were in NO position to help…without imperiling themselves.
More Russian Jews should have done more to protect their Christian neighbors during the Bolshevik persecution of Christians.
Xenos said
AS usual, Paul, you miss the point. The point is that some people did behave in a noble fashion (in whatever country) in trying to save humanity by saving Jews. THe problem lies with all the assholes now who take credit for the actions of a few. If I do something great, I do not want criminals and idiots to take credit for it: and I can tell you that in Greece they have already tried to do that with me. It is a particularly Greek problem, that people think they can steal credit from others’ good work. That is the point.
Athanasios Ioannou said
Paul, my father was with the Antartes and my mother lost two brothers, one an officer fighting the Italians in Albania and another, a private, taken hostage by the Italians because her third brother was with the Antartes and he ended up dying in the hands of the Germans after the Italians surrendered. So you would agree that they were all good patriotic Greeks. Yet my mother’s family did not lift a finger to help their Jewish neighbors, even though they were ready to risk a lot, including their lives and the lives of their loved ones to resist the invaders and occupiers. They were not particularly antisemitic and, in fact, I have heard them speak sympathetically of the plight of the Jews, but they did nothing! What we have been talking about is that most Greeks acted similarly. As to the question of whoever is to be «saved from the Jews», as Mr. Enas asks, it is not clear to me why Greeks should seek excuses for betraying (or for their parents and grandparents having betrayed) their fellow Greeks in the actions, real or imaginary, of citizens of foreign countries. By the way, the right question, Paul, is whether Turks, regardless of religion, helped Greeks in 1955. Asking if Jews helped the Greeks of Istanbul is like asking whether Greek Catholics helped the Jews of Greece (the answer, I suspect, is that they did pretty much what their Orthodox compatriots did). As it turns out, unhappily, my family has its share of that part of Greek history as well, as my father’s family owned several grocery stores and a couple of apartment buildings in Istanbul, all of which was lost after 1955. They all managed to escape with their lives, but they had harsh words for most of their Turkish neighbors, kind words for some.
jjcohen said
Paul
«…SO we are in the middle of an occupation and because ALL Greeks did not do MORE for Jews…»
That is exactly the problem.
1. «We are in the middle of a war» (By we you mean Greek Christians) you say. Wrong Paul. Greece is the middle of a war i.e. Greek Jews, Orthodox, Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists etc.
2. «…ALL Greeks did not do MORE for Jew…» Greeks should do more to help Greeks, Paul, regardless of their religion. The Jews lived here, fought here, paid taxes here, got married here etc. Greeks should have done more to save Greeks, Paul.
The war touched everyone, my family and yours.
gay super hero said
Και στην Ελλάδα, όπως και στις περισσότερες κατεχόμενες χώρες υπήρξε μία μειοψηφία που βοήθησε τους διωκόμενους εβραίους, μία μειοψηφία που επωφελήθηκε από την καταστροφή τους και βοήθησε τους γερμανούς και η μεγάλη πλειοψηφία που δεν έκανε τίποτα είτε από αδιαφορία, είτε γιατί είχαν τα δικά τους προβλήματα. Και στην Ελλάδα όπως και στις περισσότερες κατεχόμενες χώρες υπήρξε μία μειοψηφία που αντιστάθηκε, μία μειοψηφία που συνεργάστηκε και η μεγάλη πλειοψηφία που περίμενε απλώς να περάσει η μπόρα.
Δεν είναι και τόσο πρωτότυπο ότι στην Ελλάδα τονίζουμε με πολλή μεγαλύτερη έμφαση όσους αντιστάθηκαν ή όσους βοήθησαν τους εβραίους γειτονές τους σε σχέση με τους αντισημίτες και όσους συνεργάστηκαν με τους κατακτητές. Το ίδιο ακριβώς συνέβη σε πολλές άλλες ευρωπαϊκές χώρες (π.χ. Γαλλία, Αυστρία, Ολλανδία κτλ). Η διαφορά είναι ότι εκεί τα τελευταία χρόνια γίνεται μια προσπάθεια να εξισορροπηθούν τα πράγματα και να αντιμετωπιστεί η ιστορία χωρίς εξωραϊσμούς. Στην Ελλάδα δεν έχουμε αρχίσει ακόμα.
gay super hero said
Βεβαίως πρέπει να τονιστεί ότι τα ποσοστά δημογραφικής απώλειας του εβραϊκού πληθυσμού στην κατεχόμενη Ελλάδα υπήρξαν συντριπτικά και από τα υψηλότερα στην Ευρώπη. Στην Ελλάδα πάνω από το 80% του εβραϊκού πληθυσμού δολοφονήθηκε από τους ναζιστές, ποσοστό που μπορεί να συγκριθεί μόνο με την Πολωνία και ελάχιστες άλλες περιπτώσεις. Βεβαίως αυτό έχει να κάνει με την ολοκληρωτική καταστροφή της κοινότητας στη Θεσσαλονίκη όπου ζούσαν και οι περισσότεροι. Σε μέρη όπου ήταν πολύ λιγόεροι όπως στη Ζάκυνθο και την Αθήνα ήταν και ευκολότερο να προστατευθούν.
Μπορούμε όμως να κάνουμε κάποιες συγκρίσεις. Σε σύνολο άνω των 70 χιλιάδων εβραίων της Ελλάδες, ελάχιστες χιλιάδες επέζησαν. Αντίθετα στη Γαλλία π.χ. τα δύο τρίτα των εβραίων διασώθηκαν. Και αυτό από μόνο του λέει πολλά πράγματα.
Paul said
Athanasssios:
they were not particularly antisemitic and, in fact, I have heard them speak sympathetically of the plight of the Jews, but they did nothing! What we have been talking about is that most Greeks acted similarly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
WEll what were they suppose to do??????????????????
Did they know any Greek Jews and had the opportunity to do something and just not do it???…then yes they should feel guilty…but should they feel guilty because someone else did something evil and they had no control over it or no ability to do something?
A mass murderer gun crazed lunatic breaks into my apartment building and starts attacking people..I do not have a gun or other implement to defend my self or save others..should I feel guilty he killed people?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
By extension then
jjcohen Είπε:
Σάββατο, Σεπτέμβριος 6 2008 στο 8:32
I could ask the question the other way Why did not more greek jews do more for their neighbors?…because they could not…
its a rhetorical question to make a point. THEY DID NOT CAUSE THE MAJORITY COULD NOT.
NOT everybody was in a position to help/had the ability to help, I agree that those that did should have.
But you are making it sound like…everybody or most people could have done more..which I disagree with, I agree that probably more people could have done something but not MOST.
As for collaborators they should 100% been/be brought to justice.
Anyway in light of the Holocaust should not Greek Jews who are simultaneously Greek and Jewish be especially sensitive and speak out write a letter to AJC and ADL and ask them to stop collobaroting with Turkey for political reasons regarding the passage of the Armenian genocide bill, considering the suffering of their fellow Greeks and Armenian Greeks?
Thats something that you could have done many months ago when that was an issue in the US Congress and the Main Jewish Entities AJC (which KIS is affiliated with ) and ADL basically lobbied for Turkey to prevent this from passing. The ADL only after much arm twisting only finally agreed to recognize the Armenian Massacres as Genocide. BUT STILL insisted that in the interest of not antagonizing Turkey for political reasons and the Jewish minority’s security to block the passage of this bill anyway.
Something I can do today is write a letter to the greek consulate asking that more be done to bring those responsible for the Rhodes monument desecration be brought to justice.
But I am confident that you are not going to and neither is Moses Constantinis sympathetic to other peoples suffering, or why has he not contacted the AJC, which KIS, is now affiliated with to say anything about the AJC ADL JINSA etc.. collobaroting with Turkey vis-a-vis the Armenian bill, so why should I care that much?
You are Greeks when it suits you to consider yourself as such. If a jew moves to Bulgaria he becomes a bulgarian jew. so your other point is mute. If Turkey did attack Greece lets be honest most Jews would vacate to Israel or elsewhere if they can, or if Turkey took over Rhodes for example and simply expelled the Greeks but said «Greek jews» could stay..would you being a Greek as you say you are take that offer or leave in solidarity with the rest of the Greeks? or just become a Turkish Jew?
Paul said
And do not start carrying on, I know most jews are not orthodox or have a more moderate enlightened form of Judaism that ignores or reinterprets those passages in the Talmud..But I point them out to make the point is there are no «clean» cultures, races, or religions.
Jews may be victims of Greek Collaborators during WWII and many Greeks victims of Turkish atrocities but there is no such thing as collective guilt or collective righteousness only in the mind of troublemakers.
Xenos said
This is so offensive. I am not Jewish and I feel offended about what you have written — that Jewish Greeks would not defend Greece in war, but would flee to other countries (such as Israel). There is no evidence in history or now to suggest such a thing, but you think it is quite ok to give your racist and intolerant opinion as a fact. Just disgusting. These posts indicate how serious and problematic are the attitudes of mainstream Greeks.
Paul said
Name calling does not prove your point.
Perhaps I am wrong about that or not, the point is that Jews who live in Greece are Jews who live in Greece not ethnic Greeks, there is noting wrong with that of course, but ethnicity has to do with kinship and blood ties, the only ethnic Greeks jews are Greeks who converted to Judaism or intermarried with Jews. Again there is nothing wrong with NOT being ethnically Greek.
Abravanel said
@ Athanasios Ioannou
Most countries did turn an eye but basically we had a variety of local situations. Few are the clear-cut cases where we can talk about a national sentiment: Denmark saving it’s Jews, while Poland not only collaborated with the germans but slaughtered Jews in pogroms immediately after the war.
Indicative is the case of Bulgaria: despite antisemitic legislative measures, opposition by the civil society, Church and politicians saved the totality of Bulgaria’s Jews despite german pressure. On the other hand they handed over the Jews of bulgarian-occupied Thrace to the Germans and are virtually not only collaborators but actual implementors of the Final Solution – real war criminals. But for Jews that they considered theirs, ie bulgarians, they are Righteous!
Indeed you are absolutely correct when saying that greek conduct during the war was not worse that the majority in western nations and what is really troubling is the failure after the war to condemn (at least ethically) the collaborators.
@ gay super hero
Συμφωνώ απόλυτα μαζί σου – ειλικρινά δε μπορώ να καταλάβω αυτή η άρνηση ακόμα και τόσες δεκαετίες μετά να αρνηθούμε οτι εκείνα τα άτομα δεν εξέφραζαν τον ελληνικό λαό.
@ Paul
With all due respect I must denote that you seem obsessed in contesting that I wrongfully accuse Greece.
The fact that this post is about those who helped and how these people deserve to be recognized for their extraordinary courage and not to be used as fig-leaves for the collaborators is apparently something you don’t get.
I have never in any of my posts questioned if christian greeks should have done anything more to help jewish greeks. What I doubt is whether post-war claims of widespread help towards jews is true – in some places it is, while in others we edge on the opposite corner. Plus that after the war no christian collaborator was persecuted for his crimes, while the jewish ones (brought to justice by the Jewish Community) quickly were convicted. In any case I stand behind Xenos’ and Athanasios’ excellent comments.
Abravanel said
@ Paul
The rest of your stuff is highly insulting and indicative of your failure to see non-christian greeks as true greeks. Also you ascribe to Jews the adherence to a trans-nation nationality and lack of love towards their country. The fact that Jews have participated in the 1897, 1912, 1913, 1921, 1940 wars means nothing to you. You truly are a person filled with hate which seems to fail to understand that what happens other Jews do is of the same concern to me as what orthodox russians do in Georgia; I won’t even comment on how indicative of your twisted sense of reality is the fact that Greek Judaism should concern itself with what happens in the US Congress.
Before you head off to find more crazy dudes take a look here and try to understand that Jewish Greeks have proved themselves again and again since 1830. Especially since you live in the US, you should have been even more aware that Greek Judaism today still acts in the best interests of Greece, eg on the Macedonia-name issue.
«Στην Ελλάδα γεννηθήκαμε. Η Ελλάδα είναι η γη των πατέρων μας. Είμαστε Έλληνες. Δεν αλλάζουμε την Εθνικότητά μας για κανένα λόγο, με καμιά αμοιβή» .
Αυτή ήταν η απάντηση του Εβραϊκού Συμβουλίου Σερρών στην απαίτηση των Βουλγάρων κατακτητών, το καλοκαίρι του 1941, για προσχώρηση αρχικά της κοινότητάς τους στη βουλγαρική λέσχη Σερρών και στη συνέχεια, για αλλαγή της Εθνικότητάς τους.
Xenos said
This whole «ethnic Greek» thing is a crock of shit invented in the 19th century. Before that, there was a complex mix of regional and other identities everywhere, but especially across the Ottoman Empire. Some people had traditions that you would probably call Greek, but maybe they did or didn’t speak Greek; others spoke Greek but you might find their traditions (even religions) to be the wrong ones by the perverted standards of today; many transcended a simple categorisation of being an ethnic «whatever».
You have to understand that this fabrication of ethnicity is artificial, although made to try to unify the modern state of Greece. It should not be a reason to hate or despise groups who don’t quite fit into «your» idea of what a Greek is. Ultimately, you attitude is self-destructive: making enemies out of your friends (and relatives) for no reason other than prejudice is very foolish indeed.
stardust30 said
I believe that people who are racists are racists with everyone-including their own race. I feel ashamed for the greeks that supported the german pigs in their slaughter. I am against all racial discrimination including the greek that supports the myth of the ‘superior’ ancient culture. It is my strongly belief that the goverment are responsible for the survival of the racism until today, with the propaganda in education, so the young childs are brain-washed in a ‘great nation’ idea. Of course every people must be proud for it’s culture due to centuries – but without declaring that it was more superior than another-because every culture has elements that was loaned from others and there is no culture that came out of nothing.
As Mahatma Gandi said «Truth, Purity, Self-control, Firmness,Fearlessness,Humility,Unity,Peace, and Renunciation- these are the inherent qualities of a civil resister»
Paul said
Xenos:
Ethnicities do exist..and are mostly but not 100% biologicaly and culturaly related, not 100% exclusively one or the other BUT of course there is overlap with other groups…I do believe most modern Greeks are related to the ancient Greeks and related to each other but admit that other peoples probably have intermixed, so what?
the existence of ethnicity and ethnic pride need not be hatred to anyone else.
to illustrate how off you are its like saying I love my wife and kids means I hate your family.
Its like saying because one man beat his wife, marriage is evil.
A better question then is:
And if Greek ethnicity does not exist its some made up thing, then whats the big deal and why were you so offended that I implied that Greek Jews are not Greeks?
According to you there is no such a thing as a Greek.
Some ethnicities can blend into each other more easily than others. i.e, ironically to you despite what you think, I would say Southern Italians, «mediterranean/european» looking Turks, Sephardic Jews are more close cultural and ethnically to Greeks than the rest of the world and thus can blend in more easily because of broad cultural similarities and «appearance» (they are part of the larger meditteranean subgroup).
Scandinavians and Blacks are too disimilar culturally and ethnically and may not blend in as easily.
Thats not an attack on Scandinavians or Blacks just an observation.
Although there are Greeks who have married with both those groups, again its not 100% any of one thing..but nonetheless there is such a thing as Greeks…and Albanians, Turks, etc..
I am sure that there are many Turks who are descended from a similar stock of native Anatolians
as myself. A stock that lived there before the Ottoman conquest, which had an Orthodox Christian identity who over time blended with the main new turkish social group and became muslims. But they are modern Turks..I did not say they are NOT human, just that they have another ethnic identity thats okay.
Anyway all humanity is related very distantly both from a religious biblical view and an evolutionist view.
Pretending differences do not exist though is not the way to peace and happiness, Accepting differences is a better route. Or that differences must be eliminated is ridiculous.
Anyway its seems to me its always the national unity or cohesiveness of European based countries that is always questioned. Most Japanese feel Japan should be Japanese. And Most Zimababweans
do not want whites around, they want a Black Zimbabwe. i.e, if we do not let anyone and everyone in whatever numbers want to come in we are racists. That’s ridiculous.
If you are a Xenos in greece and are so depressed by Greeks having any sense of unity or nationality and this makes them mean in your mind to you maybe you should leave. I do not want to be anywhere where I am not liked. Its one thing to say there is xenophobia in Greece by some people…but if in your view the whole country is a mess and needs psychological counseling, then why not leave?
I do think Greeks welcome foreigners as tourists but Greece is also only a population of 10,000,000 how many immigrants is Greece supposed to let in until we Greeks become a minority in their own house? We already have 1,000,000 or more. 10%+
This does not apply to non-greek or non-christian natives indigineous to Greece. So I would say that while the Romaniote Jews are not ethnically Greek they are a native Greek nationality, they have a history with the other Greeks.
You also do not understand/refuse to believe that Greeks were genocided against in Asia Minor.
You can disagree all you want. The Turkish Authorities went after civilians not just military objects and before there was a Greco turkish war the «Young turks» had implemented a policy of genocide and ethnic cleansing against Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians who lived in Asia Minor even before the arrival of the Ottomans. This is something many historians acknowledge who are not Greek or Armenian etc. Many governments including France also do so. Many prominent Jews also agree as much.. and even pgheaded abe foxman after much political embarassment finally issued a statement that the Armenians experienced genocide…but still thinks for political expediency that the US not chime in on it because in realpoltik it would harm his own perceived ingroup interest.
why this matters: My point is the real estate on the earth that Greeks can call home has significantly decreased and our population is not large. its one thing to accept and support 1,000,000 immigrant or asylum seekers people in a nation of 100,000,000 and quite another to demand a 20% demographic change or else you have a racist mindset and should be fined, prosecuted, etc.
We want our home to be our home, well behaved guests who have something to contribute are welcome in manageable numbers and for humanitarian reasons a reasonable manageable number of true asylum seekers not just anyone who claims to be one.
Many Jews want to see Israel remain mostly Jewish does that make them racist?
I think that’s perfectly rational and sensible. Otherwise it won’t be a Jewish state any more.
There are over 1,000,000 immigrants in Greece 10% or more of the population. in just 10-20 years at that rate its but a few decades away before Greeks become a minority in their own house.
This is true for all European countries, in fact Jewish American David Horowitz is his name I think, editor of frontpagemag, calls the phenomena EURABIA.
Athanasios Ioannou said
While this discussion is interesting it has, I believe, veered off somewhat from the original point but since the owner of this blog doesn’t mind then so be it. With regard to Jews in Greece, the rather bizarre comment by Paul that «while the Romaniote Jews are not ethnically Greek they are a native Greek nationality, they have a history with the other Greeks» implies that the Sephardi Jews, who came to what was the Ottoman Empire in the 15th and 16th centuries have no «history with the other Greeks». Then what about the 1.5 million Orthodox Christians chased out of Turkey in 1922, who also have no common history with the other Greeks and who by many historians’ accounts did not even consider themselves Greek but rather Christian Turks when they were forced to leave their homes? Nobody in Greece would argue today (although many did in the 1920s and 1930s) that these people aren’t Greeks. As for the other silly arguments about what the Jews may or may not do in case of war, I bet that they will do what the rest of Greeks, regardless of religious affiliation, will do: Some (many?) of those who can afford it will try to send their male children of military age to whatever country they have distant relatives or friends for the duration of the fight; in such a scenario there would be lots of Greek «students» and «tourists» in Western Europe or trying to get visas for the United States and the overwhelming majority would be Greek Orthodox.
The United States is actually a very good case for what happens when immigrants move to a new land. Some people will maintain their loyalties with their country of birth; there were those who sided with the British during the American revolution and there were German immigrants (and even 2nd and 3rd generation German-Americans) who spied or otherwise supported Germany during the WWII. However, the majority of Americans of Italian, German and Japanese descent sided with their adopted country and fought and many died for it. In today’s Greece, recent immigrants are often asked to respond to similar dilemmas: Which side they will choose in the event of a conflict involving their countries of origin and Greece, in spite the fact that a war with Albania or Bulgaria or Romania is highly unlikely. The key to this question (contrived, as it may be), is, I believe, how their new country is treating them. In America, in spite suspicion and often hostility towards immigrants, even those coming from Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries, the immigrants themselves realized that their new land offered them plenty of opportunities and the ability to have, if not themselves, at least their children become full citizens, with all the rights and opportunities as the «natives» and this was something worth fighting for.
Paul said
Well I do not consider myself a Turkish Christian. And I contest that they have no common history with other Greeks.
You are misunderstanding me, I am not saying that they would be wrong to do whats in their interest. And you are right the wealthy and connected do try to save their children and let the ordinary people deal with wars.
My point:
* There is such a thing as ethnicities.
* Greeks are an ethnicity
* The rest of the world are non-Greeks, notice I did not say Non-human or unworthy or some such thing.
* Ethnicities, are partially «blood» connected and partially culturally connected, its not all or nothing.
And why are we comparing a nation of 3,500,000 sq miles, with lots of natural resources, and a population of 300,000,000 with a nation of 10,000,000 not many resources, and only 50,000 sq miles in size?
Are you suggesting then that anyway who can make his way to Greece is now Greek?
And Greekness has nothing whatsoever to do with kinship and culture?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
With regard to Jews in Greece, the rather bizarre comment by Paul that “while the Romaniote Jews are not ethnically Greek they are a native Greek nationality, they have a history with the other Greeks” implies that the Sephardi Jews, who came to what was the Ottoman Empire in the 15th and 16th centuries have no “history with the other Greeks”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well put it this way the Romaniotes have a much longer history almost ancient history, the Sephardi whose origin is Spain in some cases moved on to Turkey after Thessaloniki became Greek and many others stayed put. So, did those that move to Turkey become Turkish Jews or remain Spanish Greek Jews now living in Turkey?
I accept everybody’s humanity, I am merely stating just because someone lives in Greece one day or 100 years does not affect his ethnicity. there are Pomaks who consider themselves turkish who have been living in what is now Thrace for just as long as the Sephardi. They may like Greece and Greeks and be loyal to Greece but they consider themselves Turks and Muslims. Nothing wrong with that. But if there were a dispute between greece and turkey they may be torn psychologically.
In Israel, Israel grants citizenship to Arabs but because they understand that these people are Arab even if they love Israel and the freedoms they enjoy there, they do not put them in the position of being at odds with other Arabs or themselves (the main body of Israeli society which is Jewish) in harms way. They are very wise to do so. Its not racist to understand that there are differences and potential (notice I said potential) conflicts of loyalty or interest.
Anyway there are various ways of defining Jewishness. To some its an ethnicity to others a culture and or religion. I guess that Mr. Abravanel takes the cultural / religious view because he considers himself Greek. What would happen to a Greek Jew who converts to Christianity..are they no longer Jewish/jews?
Paul said
In Israel, Israel grants citizenship to Arabs but because they understand that these people are Arab even if they love Israel and the freedoms they enjoy there, they do not put them in the position of being at odds with other Arabs or themselves (the main body of Israeli society which is Jewish) in harms way. They are very wise to do so. Its not racist to understand that there are differences and potential (notice I said potential) conflicts of loyalty or interest.
I MEANT Israel does NOT require them to serve in the military because Israeli leaders wisely understand that this minority maybe conflicted in a war scenario.
the only Arabs who serve are the Druze which is a non-muslim sect.
Athanasios Ioannou said
We are way off topic, but I feel I need to respond, just to set the record straight: Ethnicity does exist but in the modern world it is a cultural thing as opposed to a «blood line» thing, which is what the unreconstructed nationalists would argue. Thus people who speak French or Italian or German and are Catholic or protestant or even Jewish can call themselves Swiss; I have an acquaintance who is a German speaking Swiss and who is also Jewish and while not willing to gloss over Switzerland’s rather shameful treatment of Jews from occupied Europe seeking refuge there during WWII he is, nevertheless, proudly Swiss and ready to point out Switzerland’s contributions to the welfare of the world; we have had several lively discussions on this topic. And, of course, just looking at the U.S. Army Iraq casualty list one can tell right away the multiplicity of national origins of U.S. soldiers who are dying for their country (I am not making a statement in support of the U.S. Iraq war, merely pointing out that people’s «ethnicities» have been merged into a single nationality). Post-WWII France has had several prime ministers (and many more ministers) who were Jewish, yet the overwhelming majority of the French, with the exception of some fringe left and right-wingers, have never questioned the patriotism and the sincere desire of these people to promote, first and foremost, France’s national interests. As I said before, immigrants to various countries relinquish their allegiances to their lands of origin in favor of their adopted country in direct correlation to their acceptance, legal and cultural, in their new land. This doesn’t mean that they don’t maintain an interest and support for the land of their origin, for example Greek-Americans have tried, with their actions, votes and money, to influence U.S. polices towards Greece for decades, yet they are, in their overwhelming majority, loyal and proud citizens of the United States, where they have been accepted and have been able to participate fully and quite successfully in the political, social and economic life of their country. By the way, no other Americans have implied that Greek-Amricans are, somehow, less patriotic for having a «soft spot» for the land from where they or their parents and grandparents came from and where many still have relatives. Why should Greece not be able to take advantage by offering similar assimilation opportunities to its new immigrants, whatever their national origin («ethnicity», if you prefer)?
Xenos said
Your comments are spot-on, Athanassio (even if we are off topic:-) )
Abravanel said
Comments are open and as long as one is not violating the TOS or trolling I’m extremely happy to see well structured comments. My absence often unfortunately is a forced choice – not a matter of speaking through silence. :)
I will try to focus to the jew-related part of the identity problem you discuss: Jews are found in a lose/lose situation. Initially the problem is that they refuse to integrate, but then the problem is that they’re too successful in integrating so you can’t spot them! This would not be a problem in the eyes of their «friends» if it was not believed that Jews adhere to an transnational State, a global conspiracy ante-1948, Israel after 1948. In addition we have the problem that education has omitted in stating the various contribution modern «Hellenism» enjoyed: from the Muslim Greeks of Evia, to Arvanites (of albanian relation) or Vlachs. This is something understandable the first decades of Greece’s being – all nations need time to build their own founding myths (just look at the sabra cult in Israel). It is not understandable today.
lol! As I have always said Jewish Greeks are not ethically not an ounce better that their Christian Orthodox compatriots and for this I welcome wholeheartedly this part of you comment!
Μια συνταγή αλλά τι συνταγή - Μελιτζανομπουρεκάκια « Abravanel said
[…] Να ευχαριστήσω και την offshore για την υπομονή της. […]
stardust30 said
A statement about the war between two different nations, is that in a war the one who always loses is the poor people who goes to fight.. All the politicians (the ones who are responsible for all the wars) will leave the country so they are able to ‘fight’ from abroad (a rediculous excuse for me).
And a question: Have the Israel received compensation proportional to the loses that suffered from the Germans? Of course a compensation doesn’t bring the dead back to alive, but it helps for the rest to live in prosperity.
Abravanel said
W.Germany made a deal with Israel to cover the costs for re-settling the people who suffered discrimination under the Reich and wished to emigrate to Israel. Israel could not of course claim compensation in the name of the jewish people since it not their representative and thus the answer to your question is no and correctly so.
Greece made a deal with W.Germany to waiver all claims for money but very few people ever saw a dime, whether it was Christians from the burned down Kalavryta, or deported Jews from Chalkida.
Servitoros said
Το μόνο που έχω να πώ για την γελοιότητα του ελληνικού αντισημιτισμού είναι ότι διάβασα ενά κάρο αντισημιτικές ανοησίες από κάποιο που χρησιμοποιεί το ψευδώνυμο Paul, ο οποίος προφανώς δεν έχει καταλάβει πόσο βλακώδες είναι το να είσαι αντισημίτης και ταυτόχρονα να χρησιμοποιείς ως ψευδώνυμο ένα εβραϊκό όνομα.
jjcohen said
Paul,
Επέτρεψε μου μία μικρή διόρθωση.
Οι Δρούζοι είναι Δρούζοι και όχι Άραβες, και θρησκευτικά είναι μία Μουσουλμανική ας πούμε αίρεση ή παρακλάδι.
offshore said
@Αγησιλαος Φατσαφετσουλας, pragmatika pistbeis pos enas laos (Evraioi s’afti tin periptosi) boroun kai kibernoun (episima i anepisima) enan olokliro planiti?
@jjcohen oi Douzoi apantontai sti Siria, Palestini kai Libano, afto mallon tous kanei Arabes (den einai oloi oi Arabes mousoulamnoi) einai nomizo giro sto 1000000 ston kosmo kai i thriskia tous ehei stiheia kai apo tis treis kiries monotheistikes kai apo ton boudismo.
@Abravanel ‘…the problem is that they refuse to integrate, but then the problem is that they’re too successful in integrating so you can’t spot them!’ den einai asteio alla eiha na gelaso toso edo kai poli kairo!
Αγησιλαος Φατσαφετσουλας said
Offshore,
I am willing to have a conversation (over your question) with at least, intelligent people, and NOT with those who call to take down my opinions in this site.
Any way, it is not important as to what I believe, but in this case is a matter of Historical facts. And History IS unfolding in front of our eyes on a daily basis, whether people see it or not, or whether other people trying viciously to manipulate History.
Now if has been proven from long-long time, that America rules the World, and Jews* rule America, then we have a mathematical equation. Don’t we?
*There must be some exceptions.
jjcohen said
Αγαπητή offshore,
Έχεις δίκιο για το που βρίσκεις Δρούζους. Αλλά αν τους ρωτήσεις θα σου πουν ότι δεν είναι Άραβες.
Όσο για την θρησκεία τους η οποία είναι σχετικά κρυφή από τους μη Δρούζους ομολογώ ότι δεν ξέρω αν έχουν επιρροές από άλλες θρησκείες και δη από τον Βουδισμό.
Το μόνο που ξέρω είναι ότι ήταν Μουσουλμάνοι η οποίοι αποσχίστηκαν από τον καθαρό μουσουλμανισμό.
Αν έχεις περισσότερα στοιχεία γι’αυτούς θα σου ήμουν ευγνώμων αν μου τα έστελνες, διότι με ενδιαφέρει πολύ το θέμα
Ένας υποτιθέμενος Ελ said
Μια και ξεφύγατε εκτός θέματος δε μπορώ να μη σχολιάσω πως κ. Ιωάννου
(και Abravanel) τα έχετε κάνει ένα αχταρμά άλλο πράγμα:
α) Εκεί που πάτε σωστά να διαχωρίσετε την εθνοτικότητα (ethnicity – ο όρος στα ελληνικά αποτελεί νεοτερισμό παρεμπιπτόντως) από την υπηκοότητα (citizenship) και αλλά και την εθνικότητα (nationality) μετά τα ξαναμπερδεύετε και κάνετε το national origin, ethnicity.
β) Οι παραλληρισμοί ανάμεσα σε ένα έθνος-κράτος όπως η Ελλάδα και ένα κράτος μεταναστών όπως οι ΗΠΑ στο οποίο μέχρι την πρόσφατη σχετικά «εισβολή» Μεξικανών η μεγαλύτερη μάζα των μεταναστών ήταν από χώρες χωρίς έστω υπόγειες εδαφικές διαφορές με τις ΗΠΑ είναι τουλάχιστον αστεία. Και ενώ ο Jani που μένει δίπλα μου θα μπορούσε (και ελπίζω να μπορέσει τελικά) να προσφέρει στην Ελλάδα, ο άλλος Jani που ενώ δούλευε στην επισκευή του σπιτιού μας πετούσε διάφορα υπονοούμενα περί Τσαμουριάς που φτάνει στην Άρτα και τελικά όπως μάθαμε πήγε εθελοντής στον UCK τι διάολο θα πρόσφερε στους Έλληνες παρά άλλο ένα πονοκέφαλο; Κι αν νομίζετε πως οι Jani του δευτέρου είδους είναι ελάχιστοι, έπρεπε να είσαστε στο κέντρο της Αθήνας όταν ανεξαρτητοποιήθηκε το Κοσσυφοπέδιο να δείτε πόσο ελάχιστοι είναι.
γ) Τις παπαριές περί 1.5εκ Χριστιανών Τούρκων που μας γράφετε με ύφος 10 καρδιναλίων θα τις κρατήσω παρέα με την άλλη εξυπνάδα του Abravanel για την προσφορά στον Ελληνισμό των Μουσουλμάνων Ελλήνων της Εύβοιας. Πείτε μου τι καπνίζετε αμφότεροι να το δοκιμάσω κι εγώ. Σε λίγο θα πιάσετε τα μεγαλεία του Xenos στην κοτσανολογία. Άμα μπορέσετε να μου εξηγήσετε πως μετατρέψατε τους Καραμανλήδες και ιδίως τους (Μ)παφραλήδες Πόντιους (που αλληλοσφάχθηκαν φριχτά με τους Τούρκους) σε 1.5εκ (και να εξαφανίσετε την πλειονότητα Μ.Ασιατών προσφύγων που δεν ήταν τουρκόφωνοι) θα σας ήμουν ιδιαιτέρων ευγνώμων: Θα πολλαπλασιάσω κι εγώ τις καταθέσεις μου και θα εξαφανίσω τα χρέη μου. Κι εσύ Abravanel αν αποφασίσεις να ασχοληθείς με μας τους Αρβανίτες ελπίζω να μην αρχίσεις να μας γράφεις περί Αλή Πασά – αν και αυτός άθελα του είχε πιο θετική συμβολή στον Ελληνισμό από τους ελληνόφωνους μουσουλμάνους Εύβοιας, Κρήτης και Μακεδονίας (Βαλαάδες)…
δ) Χαίρομαι που αμφότεροι μοιράζεστε την νοοτροπία του τσιφτεντέλληνα που παλεύει πως να βγάλει την ουρά του από έξω. Βέβαια το πως θα γίνονταν αυτά που λέτε σε περίοδο πολέμου που (α) όχι μόνο δε δίνονται αναβολές για σπουδές αλλά κλείνουν τα αεροδρόμια και (β) θα διαρκέσει 7-10 μέρες μέχρι να τελειώσουν τα πυρομαχικά των 2 πλευρών περιμένω να μου το εξηγήσετε. Παρέα ίσως να εξηγήσετε πως χιλιάδες Έλληνες μετανάστες στις ΗΠΑ (με τον παππού μου ανάμεσα τους) παράτησαν τη γη της επαγγελίας για να επιστρέψουν εθελοντές για τους Βαλκανικούς στην Ελλάδα… Μήπως ξέχασε να τους εξηγήσει ο παππούς του κ. Ιωάννου πως έπρεπε να είχαν αλλάξει πατρίδα παρέα με τη διεύθυνση τους;
Και για να επιστρέψουμε κάπως στο θέμα, το να αρνηθεί κανείς το ότι εν έτει 1912-13 οι Ρωμανιώτες ήταν πολύ πιο ενσωματωμένοι στον υπόλοιπο ελληνικό λαό από τους Σεφαρδίτες που είχαν τέτοιους αριθμούς στην Θεσσαλονίκη ώστε να αποτελούν κράτος εν κράτει προ απελευθέρωσης μπορεί να ερμηνευθεί μόνο ως political correctness gone amuck. Αυτό βέβαια ούτε δικαιολογεί τον αντισημιτισμό πολλών Θεσσαλονικιών (αν και εν μέρει τον εξηγεί) ούτε και σημαίνει τίποτα για το σήμερα: Από τη μια (Σεφαρδίτες) έχεις τον Αντώνη το Μόλχο που ερχόταν μέχρι και στο ψήσιμο του οβελία των ελλήνων φοιτητών στο Brown και από την άλλη (Ρωμανιώτες) έχεις τον πρώην ραββίνο της Θεσσαλονίκης και ομώνυμο εγγονό του Μ.Φριζή που – άσε καλύτερα να μη σχολιάσω…
Πάντως αν θέλεις μια ιδέα για μελλοντικό θέμα Abravanel, κοίταξε το ερώτημα του πότε ιδεολογικά άρχισαν να θεωρούνται κομμάτι του ελληνικού έθνους οι Εβραίοι (Ρωμανιώτες και Σεφαρδίτες) στα πλαίσια της μετεξέλιξης της ελληνικής εθνικής ιδεολογίας από την ανεξαρτητοποίηση του Rum milliet στο σημερινή της μορφή. Σε σχέση με τους άλλους «αλλογενείς» (άλλου Γένους) όπως οι Καθολικοί ή οι Αρμένιοι πόσο καθυστέρησαν να γίνουν αποδεκτοί;
Athanasios Ioannou said
Mr «υποτιθέμενος Ελ». First off, sorry for replying in English but I have an English language Windows box and trying to write in Greek with an English language keyboard is very, very tedious, but you can obviously read English so this should not pose any problems.
Now then regarding your response:
α-β) I don’t get what your problem is with this. In modern countries, whether we like it or not, the old National State (one nationality, one country) is rapidly giving way to multinational states. Not to mention that the former was more-or-less fiction anyway, even in Greece. I believe that the problems Greece has with its Muslim citizens in Western THraki may have to do with the country’s failure to incorporate them fully into the socioeconomic and political life of the country (e.g. the practice for decades of all major parties to have Muslim members of Parliament representing just the minority there, this is typical ghettoization which can only cause problems). Many (certainly not all) recent immigrants would have nothing more than a vague romantic attachment to their former country of origin if they were incorporated, both politically and economically, into the modern Greek state. This way it will be easier to separate those who have no interest in becoming Greeks from those would would like to, like your two Janis. As it is, neither is able to do so now and even their Greek-born children will not become citizens automaticlaly, am I wrong? By the way, you don’t need to have actual territorial disputes with another country to have an adversarial relationship, as you imply vis-a-vis Greece and the United States. There is a case of a Greek-American (I forget the name) who was released from a U.S. jail a few years ago and was allowed to come to Greece, who had been convicted for spying for the Greece and there is an even more famous case of a Jewish-American who is still in jail in the U.S. almost 25+ years after having been convicted for spying for Israel, with both countries having been U.S. allies. The point here is that despite a few exceptions most Greek-Americans, however much they love the country they (or, more likely, their parents or grandparents) were born in, they would not consider injuring the country of which they are citizens. As for Greeks (point δ) leaving the country to escape fighting in a war I maintain that many (if they have the means) will find a way to get their children into «safe havens», especially if there is some warning that war is imminent and the borders are still open. I hope that it doesn’t come to that and I certainly resent your accusation that I would approve or support such actions, I wouldn’t but I am also not blind to the very likely possibility that this will happen to some extend.
Finally (point γ) I never wrote that the (forced) immigrants from Asia Minor were Turkish speakers; what I did call them was «Christian Turks», which they were (they were Christian and citizens of Turkey, which, as I am sure you know, was the successor to the Ottoman Empire); the many Macedonian Turks and certainly the Thessaloniki Jews also became Muslim Greeks and Jewish Greeks after 1913. From my history (OK, it’s been many years since I was at school but some numbers stick) I recall that about 1.5 million προσφυγες came into Greece in 1922 and another 300,000-500,00 went to other countries, including the Unites States, Russia and Australia and about 500,00 Muslim Greeks were sent off to Turkey (even though the vast majority had no connection with Anatolia). If my numbers are off please correct. I also know from family stories (my grandfather was in Istanbul and they weren’t forced to leave until 1953 but my grandmother’s family were forced out of Smyrna in 1922) that the Anatolian refugees were not treated very well by the «indigenous» Greeks and were considered alien and less than Greek for many years («Tourkosporoi» was a popular and not very flattering appellation used for them). The whole point of this, which you seem to have missed, is that people are suspicious of newcomers, even of those with the same «ethnicity», never mind «aliens» like Albanians, Romanians or Africans, but in the end it serves the country well to assimilate them into its national life. Few would argue that the προσφυγες did not enrich Greece.
offshore said
@jjcohen
Δεν ξέρω πολλά για τους Δρούζους, πριν από αρκετά χρόνια είχα γνωρίσει έναν, ο συγκεκριμένος αισθανόταν Άραβας, Άραβας Δρούζος.
Δεν τα πάνε καλά με κανέναν, όχι μόνο με τους μουσουλμάνους ίσως επειδή δρούζος γεννιέσαι και δεν γίνεσαι. Εννοώ πως δεν γίνεται να ασπαστείς τη θρησκεία τους. ‘Η γεννήθηκες έτσι ή όχι, δρούζος πάντως δεν γίνεσαι. Προφανώς αυτός είναι και ο λόγος για τον οποίο οι δρούζοι είναι τόσο λιγοστοί, περίπου ένα εκατομμύριο σε όλο τον κόσμο.
Είναι ένα παρακλάδι του Ισλάμ αλλά περιέχει στοιχεία από τις τρεις κυριες μονοθεϊστικές θρησκείες και από τον Βουδισμό, πιστεύουν στην μετεμψύχωση αλλά δεν γνωρίζω αν μιλάμε για τον ίδιο τρόπο με τον οποίο αυτή γίνεται στον Βουδισμό.
Δεν ξέρω αν εμπλούτισα τις γνώσεις σου, αλλά το internet βρίθει πληροφορίες για το συγκεκριμένο θέμα.
Abravanel said
Κατ’αρχήν mea culpa για τους ελληνόφωνους μουσουλμάνους της Εύβοιας – ελπίζω οτι το γεγονός οτι τους γνώριζα είναι ενδεικτικό οτι σε κάτι άλλο αναφέρομουν και είχα ένα μικρό lapsus. :)
Οσο για το δ δεν μίλησα προσωπικά για μένα – το σχόλιο ήταν καθαρά χιουμοριστικό. Και ναι, οι εβραίοι έλληνες έχουν τα ίδια ποσοστά τσιφτετέλληνα όπως η υπόλοιπη κοινωνία. Το μόνο που μπορώ υπεύθυνα να σου πω είναι οτι όλες οι κοινοτικές οργανώσεις θα κάνουν τα αδύνατα δυνατά να βοηθήσουν όσο περισσότερο μπορούν – μελλοντική ανάρτηση θα αναδείξει τους λόγους που μου επιτρέπουν να το ισχυρίζομαι. Επίσης βλέποντας οτι το παίρνεις στα σοβαρά επέτρεψε μου να θυμίσω οτι τόσο την ιστορία του Φριζή στην Μικρασιατική Εκστρατεία (αρνήθηκε να απελευθερωθεί με μέριμνα της Κοινότητας της Σμύρνης χωρίς τους υπόλοιπους Ορθόδοξους αξιωματικούς), όπως και οτι στον Β’ΠΠ δεν είχαμε ούτε έναν εβραίο λιποτάκτη (και ειρωνικά αυτό το ξέρουμε λόγω φημών που κυκλοφόρησαν στην Θεσσαλονίκη το ’46 με σκοπό τον εκβιασμό της τοπικής ΙΚΘ).
Για το θέμα των προσφύγων ανοίγουμε μεγάλο θέμα που θα άξιζε άλλη ανάρτηση και ειλικρινά δεν ξέρω αν έχω τις γνώσεις. Ισως θα σε ενδιέφερε ένα πρόσφατο βιβλίο που διάβασα: Δυο φορές Ξένος. Ενδιαφέρον και για την θεματολογία αυτού του ιστολογίου λόγω του Μοργκενταου και κάποια στιγμή θα αναρτήσω κάτι γι’αυτό.
Οσο για το «πότε άρχισαν οι εβραίοι να θεωρούνται κομμάτι του ελληνικού έθνους» φαντάζομαι οτι εννοείς από την ελληνική κοινωνία, σωστά; Η απάντηση είναι ποτέ, η ιστορία του Ροζάκη ή την πρόσφατης απόφασης του Δήμου Θεσσαλονίκης είναι ενδεικτική.
Οτι τουλάχιστον είναι φυσικό να είναι έλληνες πολίτες, αυτό το εντοπίζουμε την δεκαετία του ’30 επι Μεταξά. Ειρωνικά αυτός είναι υπεύθυνος για την στρατηγική στροφή του Ελληνικού Εβραισμού προς τον ακραιφνή πατριωτισμό, αφού έθεσε τέλος στον αντιεβραισμό της ύστερης βενιζελικής εποχής.
Δυστυχώς όμως η έλλειψη οποιασδήποτε αναφοράς στον Ελληνικό Εβραισμό στην δημόσια ζωή έχει οδηγήσει σε καταστάσεις όπου να θεωρούν οτι έχω ισραηλινή υπηκοότητα γιατί είμαι εβραίος και υποχρέωση να εξηγήσω οτι και οι πρόγονοι μου ήταν έλληνες.
martingale said
σει σε καταστάσεις όπου να θεωρούν οτι έχω ισραηλινή υπηκοότητα γιατί είμαι εβραίος και υποχρέωση να εξηγήσω οτι και οι πρόγονοι μου ήταν έλληνες.
Σαφες, γιατι λετε Σοα και οχι ολοκαυτωμα, γιατι χρησιμοποιειτε τα αραμαικα σε σκευη στις συναγωγες, ποια σχεση εχετε με το Ισραηλ. Γιατι ειναι κεντρικο Ισραηλιτικο συμβουλιο και οχι κεντρικο Εβραικο?
Ξερετε κανεναν ελληνα, αλβανο, γερμανο καθολικο να λεει στα λατινικα την ανασταση?
Ουδεις ψωγος βεβαια και δεν δικαιολογουν επ ουδενι την οποια διακριση η πραξη βιας. Θεωρω οτι ειστε ισοτιμοι Ελληνες πολιτες αλλα γιατι με μπερδευετε με τα Σοα και οχι με το Ολοκαυτωμα?
Ζαν Κοέν said
Αγαπητέ Martingale
Επέτρεψε μου να σου διευκρινίσω κάτι.
Εβραίος και ισραηλίτης είναι το ίδιο ακριβώς πράγμα. Είναι ο εβραίος το θρήσκευμα υπήκοος οποιασδήποτε χώρας του κόσμου εκτός Ισραήλ. Ο Εβραίος το θρήσκευμα, ή οποιουδήποτε άλλο θρησκεύματος, κάτοικος του Ισραήλ είναι Ισραηλινός.
Τώρα γιατί το λέμε Κεντρικό Ισραηλιτικό και όχι Κεντρικό Εβραϊκό. Είναι από τα γαλλικά όπου και εκεί υπάρχει ο Εβραίος HEBREU και ο Ισραηλίτης Israelite. Μέχρι και τη δεκαετία του 60 περίπου η lingua franca ήταν διεθνώς τα Γαλλικά.
Στην Ελλάδα το ολοκαύτωμα το λέμε ολοκαύτωμα και όχι σοά που είναι η Εβραϊκή λέξη.
Όσον αφορά τη γλώσσα της προσευχής οι καθολικοί μετέφρασαν τις προσευχές τους στα Ελληνικά μόλις πριν 30 χρόνια αν δεν με απατά η μνήμη μου. Στην Ιταλία μέχρι σήμερα πολλές προσευχές λέγονται στα Λατινικά.
Τέλος, τα σκεύη στη συναγωγή και οτιδήποτε άλλο γραμμένο είναι με Εβραϊκούς χαρακτήρες αφού στη γλώσσα αυτή είναι γραμμένη και η Βίβλος ή Παλαιά Διαθήκη. Ακόμα και τα Αραμαϊκά, γλώσσα που μιλούσε και ο Χριστός, είναι γραμμένα με εβραϊκά γράμματα, βλέπε Ταλμούδ.
Athanasios Ioannou said
Greek Orthodox churches in the United States use Greek in their services and I know this to be the case with Greek Orthodox churches in Western Europe as well. Most people attending these services are citizens of the respective countries, although most are of Greek descent, often quite a number of generations back. Similarly, all icons in the churches as well as vessels used in the services have inscriptions in Greek. Yet in none of these countries the non-Orthodox or non-religious citizens would dream questioning the patriotism of their Greek Orthodox countrymen because the latter have not translated their religious services or inscribed their sacred objects in English, or French, or German or whatever. And if such demands were made one can easily imagine the outrage in the Greek press and on Greek TV (and rightly so). Yet many Greeks do not wish to grant the same common-sense consideration to our Jewish countrymen.
Ένας υποτιθέμενος Ελ said
Κατ’αρχήν mea culpa για τους ελληνόφωνους μουσουλμάνους της Εύβοιας – ελπίζω οτι το γεγονός οτι τους γνώριζα είναι ενδεικτικό οτι σε κάτι άλλο αναφέρομουν και είχα ένα μικρό lapsus. :)
Το πολυ Κωστόπουλου το ανάγνωσμα βλάπτει… :-> Αν και από μία άποψη μπορεί κανείς να πει πως προσέφεραν και ένα μοιρολόγι στα ελληνικά κατά των ελλήνων…
Οσο για το δ δεν μίλησα προσωπικά για μένα – το σχόλιο ήταν καθαρά χιουμοριστικό. [snip] (και ειρωνικά αυτό το ξέρουμε λόγω φημών που κυκλοφόρησαν στην Θεσσαλονίκη το ‘46 με σκοπό τον εκβιασμό της τοπικής ΙΚΘ).
Δεν το πήρα στα σοβαρά περί εβραίων γενικότερα – μην ανησυχείς. Εσένα προσωπικά δε σε ξέρω αλλά συμφωνώ πως ο τσιφτεντελλισμός δεν κάνει εθνοτικές-θρησκευτικές διακρίσεις στην Ελλάδα – όλους μας αγγίζει γιατί προωθείται από τα ΜΜΕ. Πάντως το 1996 δεν άκουσα για ορδές τσιφτεντελλήνων να τρέχουν στο Ελληνικό να πάρουν την πρώτη πτήση για το εξωτερικό. Αντιθέτως ξέρω για κόσμο που έψαχνε εισιτήριο την τελευταία στιγμή από ΗΠΑ για να κουβαληθεί Ελλάδα. Ίσως να μην είμαστε τόσο χάλια όσο νομίζουμε.
Οσο για το “πότε άρχισαν οι εβραίοι να θεωρούνται κομμάτι του ελληνικού έθνους” φαντάζομαι οτι εννοείς από την ελληνική κοινωνία, σωστά; Η απάντηση είναι ποτέ, η ιστορία του Ροζάκη ή την πρόσφατης απόφασης του Δήμου Θεσσαλονίκης είναι ενδεικτική.
Αυτό εννοώ και θα επιμείνω: Με τη δημιουργία του ελληνικού έθνους-κράτους μόνο οι Ορθόδοξοι εθεωρούντω μέλη του έθνους (Γένους/Ρωμιοσύνης) ενώ η υπηκοότητα μπορούσε να δοθεί σε αλλογενείς με το σύνταγμα του 1827. Παρεκτός των Μουσουλμάνων ούτε και οι Καθολικοί, οι Εβραίοι ή οι Αρμένιοι ανήκαν στο Γένος (ουσιαστικά στο Rum milliet). Δηλαδή ο Καθολικός των Κυκλάδων ήταν εξίσου έξω από την εθνική κοινότητα με τον Εβραίο πρόγονο σου. Με την αργή και οδυνηρή μετεξέλιξη του έθνους από την θρησκοκεντρική Ρωμιοσύνη στον πολιτισμικό Ελληνισμό, πρώτα ανάμεσα στην intelligencia και σιγά-σιγά ανάμεσα στον πληθυσμό αναπτύχθηκε η ιδέα πως ορισμένες αλλογενείς κοινότητες δεν είναι μόνο πολίτες αλλά και Έλληνες με την εθνική έννοια. Ταυτόχρονα με την εμφάνιση των Βαλκανικών εθνικισμών πληθυσμοί όπως οι ορθόδοξοι Αλβανοί/Βούλγαροι/Ρουμάνοι που κάποτε λογίζονταν ως κομμάτι του Γένους «αφελληνίστηκαν» (στην συνείδηση των Ελλήνων). Και προφανώς κοινότητες όπως οι πάσης εθνοτικής φύσης μουσουλμάνοι ποτέ δεν έγιναν αποδεκτοί καθώς ήταν άμεσα συνδεδεμένες συνειδησιακά με τον «εθνικό εχθρό». Δυστυχώς έχει παραμείνει ακόμα και στον 21ο αιώνα κόσμος με τα μυαλά του 19ου αιώνα «Για να είναι κανείς Έλληνας πρέπει να είναι Ορθόδοξος» και για κακή μας τύχη είναι ιδιαζόντως φωνασκούντες οι έχοντες τέτοιο κάλλο στον εγκέφαλο. Αλλά και ανάμεσα σχεδόν σε όλους τους διανοούμενους και ανάμεσα σε πολύ (θα ήθελα να πιστεύω τον περισσότερο) κόσμο (και όχι μόνο σε αριστερούς) η ιδέα πως ο αλλογενής δεν είναι Έλληνας εξ ορισμού (ασχέτως του αυτοπροσδιορισμού του) θεωρείται απαράδεκτη. Οπότε το ζητούμενο είναι πότε άρχισε κάτι τέτοιο να ισχύει, πρώτα ανάμεσα στην intelligencia. Πόσο μετά τους Καθολικούς πχ.; Πριν τους Προτεστάντες που προέκυψαν συν τω χρόνω; Υπήρξε διαφοροποίηση (όπως θα περίμενα) ανάμεσα στους γλωσσικά αφομοιωμένους Ρωμανιώτες και τους πολιτισμικά αυτόνομους Σεφαρδίτες;
Για τα περί Ροζάκη και δημαρχιακού συμβουλίου Θεσ/νίκης:
α) Με δεδομένο πως τα περί Ροζάκη τα έλεγε ο φασιστοχοντρός και τα έλεγε επίσης και για τον Σημίτη ο ανεκδιήγητος δεν έχω ιδέα αν όντως ο Ροζάκης είναι (κρυπτο)Εβραίος, απλώς Εβραϊκής καταγωγής ή υποτιθέμενος «Ελ». Και δε με απασχολεί ποσό. Το πρόβλημα με τον Ροζάκη ήταν οι θέσεις του σε διάφορα «εθνικά θέματα» σε σχέση με την κυβερνητική θέση που πήρε – ο χοντροφασίστας δε θα μπορούσε να πιαστεί από πουθενά εάν δεν υπήρχε αυτό το θέμα και η απήχηση του παρεκτός των Χρυσαυγιτών και άλλων παρομοίων φον παπαρών θα ήταν μηδενική.
β) Νομίζω πως το κράξιμο παρεκτός Θεσ/νίκης δείχνει πως μιλάμε για την αυξημένη επιρροή των προαναφερθέντων εθνικιστικών κύκλων στη Θεσ/νίκη. Προφανώς οι εμπορικές κόντρες της Τουρκοκρατίας έχουν αφήσει ανεξίτηλη στάμπα.
Οτι τουλάχιστον είναι φυσικό να είναι έλληνες πολίτες, αυτό το εντοπίζουμε την δεκαετία του ‘30 επι Μεταξά. Ειρωνικά αυτός είναι υπεύθυνος για την στρατηγική στροφή του Ελληνικού Εβραισμού προς τον ακραιφνή πατριωτισμό, αφού έθεσε τέλος στον αντιεβραισμό της ύστερης βενιζελικής εποχής.
Και ο φον παπάρας ο ιδρυτής του κόμματος της 4ης Αυγούστου πρωτοστατεί στο σημερινό αντισημιτικό ρεσιτάλ της ακροδεξιάς στην Ελλάδα. Τι ειρωνία…
Δυστυχώς όμως η έλλειψη οποιασδήποτε αναφοράς στον Ελληνικό Εβραισμό στην δημόσια ζωή έχει οδηγήσει σε καταστάσεις όπου να θεωρούν οτι έχω ισραηλινή υπηκοότητα γιατί είμαι εβραίος και υποχρέωση να εξηγήσω οτι και οι πρόγονοι μου ήταν έλληνες.
Συμφωνώ και επαυξάνω. Από την άλλη βέβαια είναι γεγονός πως δικαιούσαι εάν το επιλέξεις ισραηλινή υπηκοότητα με τον ίδιο τρόπο που ένας Έλληνας της Γεωργίας (που ποτέ δεν είχε Έλληνα υπήκοο πρόγονο) δικαιούται επαναπατρισμού ως «Ρωσσοπόντιος»…
Ένας υποτιθέμενος Ελ said
Dear Abravanel – this is the last on my part on this discussion. It’s getting off topic and wishing to be precise means I take up too much space so in the end everyone will skip what I write. :-)
Mr. Ioannou, just to make sure you don’t misunderstand me I’ll write in English. BTW in case you actually care about not forgeting your written Greek I suggest you give it a try to type in Greek on the Internet – it’s not that difficult to do with an US or UK English keyboard (I do it and so does my 70+ year old mother). After a while you end up typing blindly even if you’ve never formally learnt to do so. Anyway, just to get this off the table, you originally wrote:
Then what about the 1.5 million Orthodox Christians chased out of Turkey in 1922, who also have no common history with the other Greeks and who by many historians’ accounts did not even consider themselves Greek but rather Christian Turks when they were forced to leave their homes?
and then claimed to have written:
Finally (point γ) I never wrote that the (forced) immigrants from Asia Minor were Turkish speakers; what I did call them was “Christian Turks”, which they were (they were Christian and citizens of Turkey, which, as I am sure you know, was the successor to the Ottoman Empire); the many Macedonian Turks and certainly the Thessaloniki Jews also became Muslim Greeks and Jewish Greeks after 1913.
a) Obviously what you originally wrote and what you claim to have written are not the same thing – you are talking of what they considered themselves to be and not of terminology based on citizenship.
b) To address your original point: I know of no historian that has claimed such a thing for non-Turkophone refugees. Hence my reaction regarding Turkophones. This silly argument BTW is something I expected to hear from Xenos or read in some SlavoMacedonian publication (that claim all refugees to have been Turks). Anyway, indeed some historians (based on an essentially ethnic notion of nationhood that has no relation to Romiosene) have claimed Turkishness for the Turkophone elements (and conversely Greekness for the Greek speaking muslims of Crete etc.): these native turkish speakers were mainly Karamanlides and B/Pafralides Pontians. In the case of the former, the rather peaceful co-existence of the Orthodox Karamanlides with their muslim neighbors can suggest this possibility – and indeed the NeoTurkish leadership of the emerging Turkish state tried to take advantage of such feeling by the establishment of the (rival to the Patriarchate) church of Papa-Eftim. Given your ancestry from Istanbul you may have heard of him. It did not go very far which suggests that any Turkish consciousness was very weak and at most of a cultural, not national nature. In the case of the Bafralides, the amount of massacres they were involved in as both victims and perpetrators makes it very clear they bore no Turkish consciousness.
c) As regards the «no common history» I’m surprised that you would call 400+ years under the common umbrella of the Rum milliet as no common history (unlike the Sephardic Jews which belonged to another milliet). I’m further surprised that – given your own family partially comes from Smyrna – you would claim no common history when in fact the Greek population of the region around Smyrna had been injected with a lot of Greek immigrants from the islands of the Aegean sea in the 2nd half of the 19th century who left their homelands for better opportunities inland.
d) Regarding your latter point of terminology «Muslim Greeks» and «Christian Turks»: Beyond the fact that they are very vague terms with multiple possible meanings (unless always followed by a detailed definition) they are also not necessarily representative of all refugees. First of all there were other non-Greek Christians in Turkey (Armenians and Catholics) that were not involved in the population exchanges (though some Armenians came over as well). So the term Christian Turks is too wide. Moreover a lot of the Muslims included in the exchange were Ottoman citizens as they left Macedonia and Thrace as war refugees in 1912-13 and during WWI. They never became Greek citizens to be called Muslim Greeks. Similarly a lot of the Greeks left before the establishment of a Turkish state with juristiction over their homes – they never became Turkish citizens to be called Greek Orthodox Turks much less Christian Turks. They are referred (rather euphemistically) to as «emigrants» in the convention governing the population exchange.
Now I believe that I have established that both your initial and also your revised comments were at least misleading not to say entirely inaccurate. Regarding the rest of your answer:
α-β) I don’t get what your problem is with this. In modern countries, whether we like it or not, the old National State (one nationality, one country) is rapidly giving way to multinational states. Not to mention that the former was more-or-less fiction anyway, even in Greece.
You seem to confuse civic-states (like the USA, Canada and Australia) with multi-national states (like FYRoM to our north or the old Checkoslovakia). Nation-states may be evolving to civic ones (though France for example is not) but to claim that they are inevitably evolving to multi-national states is a stretch. To further claim that Greece was in fact multinational (as opposed to a correct – but modern – view of it as multiethnic) is ludicrous – the only suggestions for a binational Greek-Albanian state did not go very far and appear to have been a ruse to further weaken the Ottomans. The issues with the (as they self-declare themselves) Turks in W.Thrace cannot be put squarely on the shoulders of Greek government policies – though its ineptitude helped a lot. At this point most see themselves as Turks in a national, not simply an ethnic sense and do follow the suggested of the Turkish consulate. I can assure you they want to be ghettoized and want their exclusively Turkish MPs. As a leading figure for minority and former collaborator of Mr. Dimitras in ΕΠΣΕ recently said «Damn the Turk who votes for a Christian… I admire the PKK. You know why? Because it sets itself an aim and pursues it faithfully, and when a member steps out of line, they give him a beating. In our villages, we know who votes for the giaours, so why don’t we isolate them socially to see if they’ll dare speak about Sgouridis, Kontos or their mother’s c*nt.» Do you seriously believe this is an issue of integration alone? Turkish nationalism is part and parcel of the problem.
This way it will be easier to separate those who have no interest in becoming Greeks from those would would like to, like your two Janis. As it is, neither is able to do so now and even their Greek-born children will not become citizens automaticlaly, am I wrong?
Wrong on both counts:
a) Both Janis would like Greek citizenship for the security it would offer them. The UCK Janis however would use the power of citizenship to harm other Greeks which he views as his enemies. It is up to the authorities to try and weed him out – just like in the USA there is an interview process and anti-US activity can come up during it.
b) They are both capable of applying for citizenship after a quite long period of continuous stay in Greece. And people do get citizenship this way – though not in the massive numbers that it would happen if the ideas of some immigrant advocates are adopted.
c) Greece (not unlike many other nation-states) does not observe jus soli (law of the land) but instead applies jus saguinis (law of the blood). So indeed Greek born children do not get citizenship automatically – which fortunately means that the 2nd Janis’ offspring, likely to be equally nationalistic and anti-Greek, would not become Greek citizens automatically unless their mother was a Greek citizen herself and would have to apply. There is a small exception to this for children who would otherwise be stateless.
Regarding the issue of divided loyalties, I’ll partially agree with you: most Greek Americans (0th and 1st gen) that I know are foremost Americans and sometimes (1st gen) do not feel Greek beyond the moussaka reference. And indeed the occasional spy case proves to be the exception rather than the rule. Despite that, ethnic lobbies in the US have occasionally been accused (especially the Israeli one) of the wrong loyalties in the media. But in the end a real test of divided loyalty is warfare and the Serb-American community did not simply sit on the sidelines during the Kossovo conflict but actively protested the war. And having a common history of territorial disputes (such as Greece does with its northern neighbors) does lead to further trouble among immigrants: The term «reconquista» is not used by Chinese Americans after all. To blindly wish the pre-existing national feelings of an immigrant away is foolish.
So I have not missed your point but I maintain that in some cases the mistrust of the foreigner may in fact be well justified, especially when we’re talking of (the more in-vogue) integration and not (the much maligned even when not forced) assimilation. And so indeed I feel that the 45-year old Nigerian whom I served with in the army will be a good Greek (not simply a Greek citizen) – but not immigrants are like him.
From my history (OK, it’s been many years since I was at school but some numbers stick) I recall that about 1.5 million προσφυγες came into Greece in 1922 and another 300,000-500,00 went to other countries, including the Unites States, Russia and Australia and about 500,00 Muslim Greeks were sent off to Turkey (even though the vast majority had no connection with Anatolia). If my numbers are off please correct. I also know from family stories (my grandfather was in Istanbul and they weren’t forced to leave until 1953 but my grandmother’s family were forced out of Smyrna in 1922) that the Anatolian refugees were not treated very well by the “indigenous” Greeks and were considered alien and less than Greek for many years (”Tourkosporoi” was a popular and not very flattering appellation used for them). The whole point of this, which you seem to have missed, is that people are suspicious of newcomers, even of those with the same “ethnicity”, never mind “aliens” like Albanians, Romanians or Africans, but in the end it serves the country well to assimilate them into its national life. Few would argue that the προσφυγες did not enrich Greece.
Ένας υποτιθέμενος Ελ said
Ooops – that’s what happens when one writes too long a response – Mr. Ioannou’s text was incorrectly partially included at the bottom of mine – I guess Abravanel can fix it. Moreover the last sentence should be «not all immigrants are like him». Sorry about that.
A Greek In the US said
@Athanasios
«Greek Orthodox churches in the United States use Greek in their services»
Your facts are wrong. I have lived in the United States for 24 years. My stations have included Providence RI, Boston, MA, Chicago IL, Baltimore MD, and St. Louis MO. I have attended Church services regularly in each of these cities. The liturgy and sermons were always in English (there were occasionally some words in Greek). The adoption of Emglish was a wise decision by the Church leadership so as to not exclude the faithful of Greek origin who did not speak Greek, as well as converts.
Abravanel said
Θα προσπαθήσω να απαντήσω, αρκεί να θυμάσαι οτι η ακαδημαϊκή συζήτηση ξεκίνησε μόλις την δεκαετία του ’90 με ελάχιστους ιστορικούς οπότε και οι δικές μου γνώσεις (σε συνδυασμό με τις εμπειρίες τις δικές μου και της οικογενείας μου) είναι ακόμα σχετικά ακατέργαστες.
Ας ξεκινήσουμε με τα δεδομένα οτι η έννοια «έλληνας» υπήρξε μια έννοια που άλλαζε από τα προ/επαναστατικά χρόνια, έως την αποκρυστάλλωση της Μεγάλης Ιδέας. Ισως ακόμα πιο σημαντικό είναι οι αλλαγές όχι στον ορισμό του «έλληνα», αλλά στις αλλαγές στον αυτοπροσδιορισμό των διάφορων ελλαδικών ομάδων. Πχ αξίζει ολόκληρη ανάρτηση ο σχολιασμός ενός αγαλματιδίου που είχα δεί στο Μουσείο της Παλαιάς Βουλής που ονομάζεται «Συμφιλίωση Ελληνα-Αρβανίτη» (ή Γκέκα – η μνήμη μου με προδίδει ενώ στον ιστότοπο του Μουσείου δεν αναφέρεται ;) ).
Για τους εβραίους που επιβίωσαν της Επανάστασης (βασικά μόνο οι εβραίοι της Χαλκίδας γιατί η πόλη παραδόθηκε από τους Τούρκους μετά τον πόλεμο) δεν τέθηκε ποτέ ζήτημα ενσωμάτωσης – άλλωστε οι εποχές ήταν τέτοιες. Βέβαια η ανάπτυξη ενός αστικού κράτους τους έφερε σε ένα τέτοιο σημείο που από την ανάγκη απαγόρευσης του Κάψιμου του Ιούδα (που τότε ήταν σταθερή πηγή αντιεβραικής βίας) κατά την δίαρκεια της επίσκεψης του Λόρδου Ρότσιλντ που οδήγησε στην υπόθεση Πατσίφικο, φτάσαμε το 1912 να στέλνει ο Ε.Βενιζέλος τον προσωπικό του φίλο Κωσταντίνη ως εκπρόσωπο των εβραίων της Παλαιάς Ελλάδος να πείσει την εβραϊκή ηγεσία της Θεσσαλονίκης να υποστηρίξει την ελληνική κατοχή της Θεσσαλονίκης. Βέβαια αυτό δεν σημαίνει οτι στα μάτια του λαού είχαμε την όποια βελτίωση, τόσο το πογκρόμ της Κέρκυρας, όσο και οι φήμες κατά εβραίων εφέδρων στην ήττα του 1897 επιβεβαιώνουν αυτό το γεγονός. Επίσης ας μην ξεχνάμε οτι ο Ε.Βενιζέλος υπήρξε η μεγαλύτερη πηγή αντισημιτισμού για τα επόμενα 40 χρόνια αλλά αυτό είναι άλλη ιστορία.
Οι 100.000+ εβραίοι της Μακεδονίας, Θράκης και Ηπείρου ήταν μια διαφορετική περίπτωση γιατί πολύ απλά δεν είχαν κάποια εθνική ατζέντα που να τους φέρει σε αντίθεση με τον ελληνικό επεκτατισμό (ακόμα και ο σιωνισμός στρέφονταν εναντίον της Οθωμ.Αυτοκρατορίας) αλλά από την άλλη δεν ήταν μια ασήμαντη μειονότητα. Ακόμα και η ιστορία διεθνοποίησης της Θεσσαλονίκης δεν υπήρξε πηγή βίαιων προστριβών γιατί θεωρήθηκε απόλυτα φυσιολογική ενέργεια στα πλαίσια της εποχής – άλλωστε και η Ελλάδα προσπαθούσε να κάνει περίπου το ίδιο και στην Σμύρνη, ενώ η ελληνικότητα της πόλης ήταν πολύ λιγότερο αδιαμφισβήτητο γεγονός στα μάτια των ελλήνων τότε. Ταυτόχρονα μέσα στην ίδια εβραϊκή κοινότητα είχαν αναπτυχθεί από τον 19ο αιώνα ουσιαστικά 3 τάσεις: οι σιωνιστές, οι αφομοιωτές και οι σοσιαλιστές. Οτι οι αφομοιωτές κυριαρχούσαν, ενώ οι σοσιαλιστές ήταν διεθνιστές βοήθησε να διαμορφωθεί η στρατηγική επιλογή της ενσωμάτωσης στο ελληνικό κράτος. Το πρόβλημα ήταν όμως οτι το ελληνικό κράτος δεν μπορούσε να λειτουργήσει ανεξάρτητα από τον λαό και οπότε αρνήθηκε να τους δεχτεί, ειδικά μετά το 1922. Ως ένα σημείο είναι ενδιαφέρον να δούμε τα φιλο-εβραικά μέτρα 1912-1922, σε σχέση με την διαμόρφωση της νομοθεσίας μετά το 1922. Η άρνηση όμως δεν επηρέασε τον ίδιο τον Ελληνικό Εβραϊσμό που συνέχισε την πορεία «ελληνοποίησης» του, με θετικά αποτελέσματα στην Αθήνα και την Θεσσαλία. Δυστυχώς όμως η άφιξη μαζικών, μη-συμπαγών πληθυσμών λόγω της Μικρασιατικής Καταστροφής που συνεκτικό τους στοιχείο ήταν πρώτα η θρησκεία και μετά το γεγονός οτι ήταν πρόσφυγες λόγω μιας «ελληνικότητας», οδήγησε στην κατάρρευση της όποιας αποδοχής σε λαϊκό και ανώτατο επίπεδο που είχε οικοδομηθεί μέχρι τότε – τόσο στους Ρωμανιώτες στα Ιωάννινα, τόσο στους Σεφαραδίτες στην Θεσσαλονίκη ή το Διδυμότειχο. Μόνο ο Μεταξάς ο οποίος επέβαλε την ελληνοποίηση των πάντων (που οι εβραίοι την έψαχναν απεγνωσμένα) έφερε βελτίωση και γι’αυτό μόνο θετικές αναμνήσεις έχει αφήσει και υπήρξε υπεύθυνος της ενθουσιώδους εβραϊκής συμμετοχής στον πόλεμο του ’40, όπως ανέφερα πριν.
Με άλλα λόγια η ίδια στάση των εβραϊκών πληθυσμών ή οι πολιτισμική τους αφομοίωση δεν έπαιξε σημαντικό ρόλο. Απόδειξη είναι η αδιάφορη κατάσταση των Ρωμανιώτων στα Ιωαννινα, την Αρτα ή την Πρέβεζα, σε αντίθεση με την καλή των σεφαραδίτικων στον Βόλο. Μικροδιαφορές μπορούμε προφανώς να βρούμε αλλά δεν συγκρίνονται τόσο με την κρατική αποδοχή που επέβαλε ο Μεταξάς, όσο και με το αν μιλάμε για την Παλαιά ή Νεα Ελλάδα. Η Θεσσαλονίκη, ενώ σε γενικές γραμμές επιβεβαιώνει αυτό το γεγονός, παρουσιάζει ορισμένες διαφοροποιήσεις λόγω των ιδιαίτερων χαρακτηριστικών της κοινότητας.
Το πρόβλημα δεν ήταν οτι βγήκε ο Γ.Καρατζαφέρης επικαλούμενος τον ναζιστικό Νόμο περι Καθαρότητας της Φυλής. Το πρόβλημα ήταν οτι δεν βγήκε η ΝΔ να τον καταδικάσει, οτι καν το ΠΑΣΟΚ δεν προστάτευσε τον βουλευτή του και καν το ψευδο-αντιφασιστικό ΚΚΕ έμεινε σιωπηλό. Αυτές οι σιωπές είναι κυρίως το πρόβλημα στην Ελλάδα, όχι ο εκάστοτε λαικιστής κ.Καρατζαφέρης που χρησιμοποιεί τον αντισημιτισμό ως εργαλείο.
Απολύτως κανένα κράξιμο – μόνο 5/6 ιστολόγια ενδιαφέρονται και 2 άρθρα σε εφημερίδα, μπερδεύεις τον RealWorld με την ελληνική μπλογκοσφαίρα. :)
Οσο για τις εμπορικές κόντρες κάνεις λάθος – οι γηγενείς τις Θεσσαλονίκης αποτελούν αμελητέο παράγοντα στην Θεσσαλονίκη μετά το 1912 και η ιστορική μνήμη της πόλης αλλοιώνεται μετά την άφιξη των προσφύγων το 1922. Ο αντισημιτισμός στην Θεσσαλονίκη υπήρξε υπόθεση τόσο της εθνικής ανασφάλειας μιας παραμεθόριου πόλης, όσο και της προσφυγικής αντίληψης της ιστορίας.
Το γεγονός οτι μεταπολεμικά οι δικοί μου επέλεξαν να μείνουν στην Ελλάδα που στα σίγουρα δεν τους καλωσόριζε, στα σίγουρα αντιμετώπιζε τον ίδιο πόλεμο που αντιμετώπιζε το Ισραήλ, που στα σίγουρα τους πρόσφερε λιγότερα από ότι η Ελλάδα δεν το σκέφτεται κανείς όμως. ;)
Επίσης ο Νόμος της Επιστροφής του Ισραήλ είναι ελαφρώς διαφορετικός – σκοπός του είναι η αυτόματη παροχή υπηκοότητας σε οποιοδήποτε διώκεται για την εβραϊκή του καταγωγή. Ακριβώς γι’αυτό ισχύει και για τους μη/εβραίους, αρκεί να έχουν οποιαδήποτε εβραϊκή καταγωγή σύμφωνα με τους χιτλερικούς νόμους της Νυρεμβέργης «Περι Φυλής» ανεξάρτητα αν είναι οι ίδιοι εβραίοι – γεγονός που εκμεταλλεύθηκαν πάρα πολλοί ρώσσοι.
Isidore said
I have been reading all this and while I do not think I have anything more to add to the very broad and wildly meandering (and, I must say, for the most part quite civil) discussion involving ethnicity, nationality and immigration, I would like to respond to Messrs. Ioannou and Greek in the US regarding Greek Orthodox services in the United States. I have attended Greek Orthodox church services in North Carolina, Maine and Massachusetts during my 30+ years in the United States and both responders are partially right (or partially wrong, take your pick): Services are conducted in a mixture of English and Greek with the exact ratio depending on the makeup of the particular congregation and, apparently, at the discretion of the local priest and, I assume, the local bishop as well. In areas where the congregation consists primarily of people of Greek origin who were born in the United States and who (or their non-Greek convert spouses) may speak little or no Greek most of the service is in English with only a few portions in Greek whereas in areas where the congregation includes a large portion of first generation immigrants most of the service is in Greek. The «Lord’s Prayer» or «Κυριακή Προσευχή» is typically recited in both languages and from the loudness of the Greek and English versions one can gauge how much of the congregation feels comfortable enough with spoken English or Greek. If Mr. Greek in the US finds himself in Massachusetts he might want to attend services in Marlborough and in Weston. The former community is middle-to-working class and includes quite a few first generation immigrants whilst the latter is decidedly upper class and even the first generation immigrants eschew Greek in favor of English and the respective services clearly reflect their language preferences. I should add that I have not seen in any Greek Orthodox church icons inscribed in English.
Athanasios Ioannou said
Ομολογω οτι εντυπωσιαστηκα απο το μεγεθος, αν οχι και απο το περιεχομενο, της απαντησης του Ενος υποτιθέμενου Ελ και ημουν ετοιμος να ανταπαντησω οτν θυμηθηκα καποιους στιχους απο ενα απο τα πρωτα ποιηματα που εμαθα στα Αγγλικα πριν τοσα χρονια και τους οποιους στιχους παραθετω σε δικη μου, μαλλον πεζη, καθοτι η ποιητικη φλεβα μου λειπει, μεταφραση:
Τα λογια ειναι σαν τα φυλλα και οπου υπαρχουν σε αφθονια,
φρουτα της λογικης απο κατω σπανια βρισκονται
Alexander Pope
————————————————————–
I must say that I was impressed by the length, if not the content, of the reply posted by Ένας υποτιθέμενος Ελ and I was getting ready to respond when I remembered a few lines from one of the first poems I learned in English so many years ago:
Words are like leaves and where they most abound,
much fruit of sense beneath is rarely found
Alexander Pope
Ένας υποτιθέμενος Ελ said
Δόξα σοι ο Θεός κ. Ιωάννου που το στρίψατε δια του Πόουπ. Χίλιες φορές ειρωνικά ποιητικά τσιτάτα παρά να συνεχίσετε τις κοτσανολογίες: τουλάχιστον θα μας μείνει και καμμιά τρίχα στην κεφαλή. Καλή αρχή με το ελληνικό πληκτρολόγιο – μόνο να ανακαλύψετε τους τόνους σας μένει.
Athanasios Ioannou said
Συνεχιζετε να με εντυπωσιαζετε κ. Υποτιθεμενε, αυτη την φορα με την Ελληνικωτατη ευλαβεια σας επικαλουμενος τον Μεγαλοδυναμο, αν και νομιζω οτι επρετε να ειχατε γραψει το «Σοι» με κεφαλαιο σιγμα. Βεβαια κρινοντας απο τα γραφομενα σας ειναι φανερο οτι ξερετε πολυ καλα απο «κοτσανολογιες». Τουλαχιστον ειστε τυχερος αφου, οπως γραφετε, εχετε ακομα μερικες τριχες στο κεφαλι. Οσο για τους τονους ποτε μου δεν τους συμπαθησα και ετσι δεν εχω προθεση να τους ανακαλυψω, οπως ευγενικα μου προτεινετε. Τελος παντων, ειναι φανερο οτι θα πρεπει «να συμφωνησουμε να διαφωνουμε» οπως λενε και οι Αγγλοσαξωνες.
Ένας υποτιθέμενος Ελ said
Ελπίζω να με συγχωρέσει ο Μεγαλοδύναμος που δεν το έκανα κεφαλαίο το Σοι – καλά να είσαστε εσείς που εκκλησιάζεστε (ελληνιστί) και με διορθώσατε. Χαίρομαι που σας εντυπωσιάζω κ. Ιωάννου και ευχαριστώ για το ενδιαφέρον σας για την υγεία των τριχών της κεφαλής μου. Ομολογουμένως αφού διάβασα τις απόψεις σας περί του multinational ελληνικού έθνους-κράτους και την αυτοσυνείδηση 1.5εκ προσφύγων έχασα παραπάνω της μια τούφας. Οπότε προφανώς να συμφωνήσουμε πως διαφωνούμε – εδώ όπως έδειξα πιο πάνω ανερυθρίαστα ανασκευάσατε την αρχική σας διατύπωση, υπάρχει περίπτωση να βγάλουμε ποτέ άκρη; Πάντως οι τόνοι μπορεί να σας κάθονται στο στομάχι (ακόμα και με το μονοτονικό πια;) αλλά δεν είναι ανάγκη να γράφετε την «Ελληνικότατη» με ωμέγα – θα αρχίσουν να μας βγαίνουν και τα μάτια…
βω
Athanasios Ioannou said
Μια και η διαδικτυακη σχεση μας, κ. Υποτιθεμενε, εχει πλεον γινει τοσο οικεια ωστε να διορθωνουμε ο ενας τα γραμματικα και συντακτικα λαθη του αλλου, ας μου επιτρεψετε να σας υποδειξω οτι μαλλον εχετε χασει παραπανω της «μιας» τουφας μαλλιων, εκτος και αν και εσεις εχετε προχωρησει μονοπλευρα με την δικη σας απλοποιηση της ελληνικης γλωσσας. Παντως μην ανησυχειτε, τα λαθη σας, σε αντιθεση, οπως γραφετε με τα δικα μου, για τα οποια σας ζητω συγνωμη, δεν εχουν βαλει σε κινδυνο την οραση μου. Πως το ειχε πει εκεινος ο Εβραιος προφητης τον οποιο εμεις οι ελληνηστι εκκλησιαζομενοι προσκυνουμε Κυριακες και γιορτες, «ο αναμαρτητος υμων πρωτος […] βαλετω λιθον»;
Ένας υποτιθέμενος Ελ said
Φαίνεται πως παρέα με τις τούφες των μαλλιών χάνω και τα τελικά σίγμα όταν αλλάζω τη σύνταξη των προτάσεων μου. Φιλικότατα (πέραν κάθε ειρωνίας) αν αρχίσετε να χρησιμοποιείτε Firefox μπορείτε να φορτώνετε Greek spell checker extension για όταν διαλέγετε να επικοινωνήσετε ελληνιστί. Δεν πιάνει τα γραμματικά και συντακτικά λάθη βέβαια αλλά πιάνει τα ορθογραφικά.
Abravanel said
I should add that I have not seen in any Greek Orthodox church icons inscribed in English.
That’s because you’re far away from Kilkis which takes far more liberties. :D
Karl Marx appear in icons in Kilkis’ Church – by Roides
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Πάντως χαίρομαι που βλέπω τόση αγάπη μεταξύ των σχολιαστών!
Σοβαρά όμως στο συγκεκριμενο θέμα έχω σκοπό να ασχοληθώ με την συνείδηση των γηγενών ελλήνων θεσσαλονικιών την περίοδο του Μακεδονικού Αγώνα και μέχρι το 1922. Πρόσφατα έτυχε να διαβάσω ορισμένες πηγές που αλλάζουν την ιδέα που προσωπικά είχα – θα σας ενημερώσω μέσω email τότε αφού παρά τις όποιες διαφωνίες με ενδιαφέρει να ακούσω κριτικές τότε. :)
Irrelevant said
Dear Posters and Readers
This is the point where a «troll» is needed.
I feel i must be amused, frightened, bewildered and even gratified after reading this thread.
The point of everithing is that history, creed, race, ethnicity and social status is irrelevant when you keep repeating and emulating failed or biased behaviours.
Not trying to be overly critical, i must point out that there is no point in dicussing the above issues any further.
The real issue is whether people are ready to judge facts in an unbiased and constructive way. I do not want to be missunderstood, so i won’t advocate in favour of anyone in this conversation.
I am above all Human, and therefore i must first of all act as one, by trying to see for the causes of these acts, or missconceptions, for they are not the root of these seemingly impoortant issues, they are aftereffect of more important ones, ones that indicate on the incoherence of human thinking and behaviour, always corelated to the present social and economic climate.
For if all the source of problems in this world is not greed and intolerance, i do not know what is.
All that deals with fractions of the human race is irrelevant. Only the support of ideas that unify us are of value, for the moment we assign attributes to a human being, we instate comparissons to the others.
Ethnicity, Creed, Colour, Religion and social status, institutes and concepts created by people smarter, more cunning and with the will to gain against common good, will soon become non issues. If we are to survive the next century we must forget gains and losses for there will soon come a time in which they are simply irrelevant.
Only humans can save themselves.
This is the only thing relevant.
giakopoulos said
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