Abravanel, the Blog

Jewish life and not only in Greece / Εβραϊκή ζωή και όχι μόνο στην Ελλάδα

Metropolite Anthimos and his «irrefutable archives»

Posted by Abravanel, the Blog στο 29/06/2008

Metropolite of Thessaloniki, His Holiness Anthimos has reached national prominence due to his adamant positions in national issues and in specific the name dispute with the Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia. He also expressed his fierce opposition to the decision of the Greek Government to abolish the voice «religion» in national greek identity cards; he held a protagonist role in the staging of massive protests while the current ArchBishop of Greece Ieronimos, then only a Metropolite, was much more hesitant to participate in the protests.

During a recent congress on the Holocaust which took place in Thessaloniki diverse opinions were voiced stating that while aid to the Jewish Greeks is well documented, the story of local collaborators and the destiny of Jewish properties remains vague. His Holiness wrote a letter to the newspaper that stated that the Metropolite of Thessaloniki Yennadios was declared as Just by Yad Vassem and denied any form of local collaboration with the nazi Germany or that the Church of Thessaloniki benefited by jewish property. He ended the letter by stating:
«Never in so many years, from the time after the war, has any charge been brought forward on the looting of property belonging to Jewish Greeks by the Christian Greeks. The established historical truth is this regarding the Jews of Thessaloniki and the archives of our Holy Metropolis are irrefutable.»

I don’t really have to comment much, this subject is waaay too big. I would just like to contribute a small photo to the archives of the Metropolis of Thessaloniki:

Gravestones from the Jewish Cemetery piled in the couryard of St.Demetrius

Gravestones from the Jewish Cemetery in the courtyard of the Church of St.Demetrius of Thessaloniki, (the Church) destroyed during the fire of August of 1917.

His, evident, failure in finding any evidence of wrong doing is strange but not a first. Back in 2000, when he was heading the Metropolis of Alexandroupolis, he had problems with history records and with anyone not fitting his portrait of ideal greek. Let’s remember his statements as they appeared in Avgi newspaper on August the 27th 2000:
«I want you to bring to me – said Anthimos of Alexandroupolis, the names of the Catholics or the Jews who have fallen in the Epic of Albania. It is a matter of blood and sacrifice. We are going to get killed and others shall enjoy the freedoms? Let them go where their country is.«

Out of a population of around 77.000 Jews in 1940, 12.898 Jews were enlisted in the Greek Army. Out of these 12.898, 513 were killed and 5.743 wounded. A further 186 remained invalid because of the frostbites and hardships in the Albanian Front. The 56th Regiment and the 600th Regiment (dubbed «Cohen Regiment because of the presence of almost only Jews) were formed in their majority by Jews of Thessaloniki and greek Macedonia.

One of the most important heroes of the italian invasion was Lieutenant Colonel, (later becoming Colonel), Mordochaios Frizis who died repelling the italian offensive with his 8th Division on December 5th 1940.

On the 27th of October 2003, the President of the Greek Republic, mr.Stefanopoulos inaugurated a monument to the fallen Jewish Greeks and acknowledged their contribution in defending our country. The ceremony was attended by ministers, the head of the opposition mr.Karamanlis but not by the late ArchBishop Christodoulos who declined the invitation. I think H.H. Anthimos should address the General Army Staff of the Greek Army which I’m sure will be happy to provide him with the names of these 12.898 soldiers.

I have already offered him one… And while he’s at it, please do re-check the irrefutable archives of his…

Sources:

Anthimos doubts of the Jews dying to defend Greece in WW2.

The letter of H.H.Anthimos (thanks to mr.Dimitra from the Helskinki Watch for pointing this out)

The congress on the Holocaust in Thessaloniki

The inauguration of the monument

The first of the 3 posts dedicated to the Jewish Cemetery of Thessaloniki destroyed by civilian authorities. (the photo can be found there)

62 Σχόλια to “Metropolite Anthimos and his «irrefutable archives»”

  1. The Greek with No Name said

    The Jews of Thessaloniki have not always been loyal Greeks as some of the evidence produced in this post reveal.

    https://abravanel.wordpress.com/2008/06/15/pasok-the-great-jewish-political-party/#comment-1615

    Also, the claims of lost property are ridiculous because it is almost impossible to prove the amount of property expropriated from Greeks when Jews moved into Thessaloniki at the invitation of the Sultan.

    Perhaps the ledger has been balanced and we should leave it at that.

  2. Xenos said

    Yes, all claims against Greeks are just ridiculous. Everyone knows how wonderful and righteous Greeks are in their financial and other dealings: how could anyone possibly have the effrontery to make a claim for stolen property?

  3. The Greek with No Name said

    G’day —————— (Xenos), the resident English drunk. As always incapable of providing any evidence – just abuse.

  4. Xenos said

    Sorry mallaka, you’ve got the wrong person. Try putting your head on the right way

  5. The Greek with No Name said

    Abravanel, apologies. I did not intend to attract this sort of crowd to your blog.

  6. Abravanel said

    I have deleted the personal details mentioned by The Greek With No Name, identifying Xenos with a known public figure. The remarks on Xenos being keen to alcohol and The Greek With No Name being keen to masturbation will remain, unless you ask me specifically to remove them by email.

    Both refrain from posting until I think what am I going to do with you – consider yourselves fortunate that I would not like to act in haste.

  7. Antilogia said

    2 questions:

    1) How does the picture disprove Anthimos’ allegations?
    2) What does the rest of the story have to do with the subject? It seems like you’re trying to personally discredit him.

  8. Abravanel said

    Back in comment 151 I had warned The Greek With No Name that he was trolling, ie «An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

    He/she confirmed 100% my judgment since he engaged in futile name-calling of a new commenter here. This is indicative of his behavior but the problem is that he/she also published a name which identified a real person to this pseudonymous. This thing is unethical and a clear breach of the WordPress.com Terms Of Service which all of us agree by posting or commenting in an Automattic blog. There is no clear penalty for breaching the Automattic TOS but I am obliged to protect myself from future comments from The Greek with No Name which could result in me being held legally responsible for them.

    The fact that he re-iterated the same behaviour just a week after I had warned him that trolling is not welcome makes him undesirable here. The fact that he posts stuff that are a breach to the TOS force me to ask him that he categorically avoids posting any more comments here and state that he/she are not welcome. Please respect my will and my hospitality.

  9. Abravanel said

    @ antilogia: H.H.Anthimos clearly states that the archives of the Metropolis of Thessaloniki show that no greek christian has benefited or looted any jewish property.

    The picture verifies that the Cathedric of St.Demitrious used jewish tombstones for works regarding it; in specific they were used for the courtyard and minor restoration works inside the same church. I find it impressive that the Metropolis of Thessaloniki was unaware of tombstones laying around in the courtyard of it’s cathedral. Still it proves that the Metropolis of Thessaloniki used looted jewish property either directly, or indirectly through it’s contractors.

    This incident of selective memory is not the first of H.H.Anthimos. In another time he forgot the sacrifice of thousands of jewish greeks who have fought in WW2 and he expressed a racist remark that jewish greeks should return to their own homeland, thus presuming that Greece is not their homeland. This allows space for people to suspect that H.H.Anthimos is not fond of it’s jewish compatriots. I have no proof that he purposely excluded mentioning to specific archives of the Metropolis but my opinion is that he is unreliable regarding matters of jewish history.

  10. Antilogia said

    The picture verifies that the Cathedric of St.Demitrious used jewish tombstones for works regarding it

    Well, it shows some debris that were gathered there, after the city fire.
    Are you sure it was looted? It may be so, but the picture alone doesn’t prove that.

    In another time he forgot the sacrifice of thousands of jewish greeks

    In that sense, he offended catholic greeks as well.
    August 2000 is when the religion-on-identity-cards issue was at its peak. As an orthodox priest he wanted to highlight the importance of his religion to the nation, compared to others.

    Especially against the rumours that the decision for the omission of religion was fueled by the demands of the jewish community in Greece.
    Since you brought it up, was that the case back then?

  11. Abravanel said

    Well, it shows some debris that were gathered there, after the city fire.
    Are you sure it was looted? It may be so, but the picture alone doesn’t prove that.

    Maybe I wasn’t clear: testimonies tell us that the Church of St.Demetrious used tombstones from the destroyed jewish cemetery of Thessaloniki to do repairworks. This happened in the late 1940’s and not in 1917. The testimonies are the proof, the photo just corroborates their version. Each and every tombstone deriving from the jewish cemetery was a product of looting and of an illegal and immoral act. The cemetery was destroyed by the Municipality of Thessaloniki, with permission of the germans and on the initiative of some groups of the city – then the greek State confiscated the land and the tombstones on the grounds that «their owners had abandoned it». This act is illegal, immoral since in 1944 the owners where being turned into ashes in the crematoria in Auschwitz and perpetraded by collaborators of the nazi occupiers and traitors of Greece.

    In my humble opinion the Metropolis of Thessaloniki should shown more sensitivity and have chosen to show respect to the religious aspect of this terrible act.

    In that sense, he offended catholic greeks as well.
    August 2000 is when the religion-on-identity-cards issue was at its peak. As an orthodox priest he wanted to highlight the importance of his religion to the nation, compared to others.

    Indeed he did. Later he purposefully described greeks as non-greeks because they have a different religion. This is unforgivable after Greece has experienced in the most bitter way what it means to turn greeks against greeks from 1945 until 1973.

    The omission of the voice «religion» in the greek identity cards indeed met a demand of the greek jewish community. Still it was an initiative of the independent Authority for the Protection of Private Data, a thesis that was confirmed by the European Court of Human Rights some years later.

    Still this post is about H.H.Anthimos and his problems with history when concerning a particular group of greeks. I am preparing a wider post on the identity cards thesis and I welcome your input there.

  12. Antilogia said

    then the greek State confiscated the land and the tombstones on the grounds that “their owners had abandoned it”. This act is illegal, immoral since in 1944 the owners where being turned into ashes in the crematoria in Auschwitz and perpetraded by collaborators of the nazi occupiers and traitors of Greece.

    After the war, the area was used to build the University of Thessaloniki. I mean … a university is something better than a parking lot, now turning into a «Museum of Tolerance», in Jerusalem, isn’t it?

    The omission of the voice “religion” in the greek identity cards indeed met a demand of the greek jewish community. Still it was an initiative of the independent Authority for the Protection of Private Data, a thesis that was confirmed by the European Court of Human Rights some years later.

    Let me have doubts about the «independence» of such government-appointed Authorities, but that’s another story, I concede that.

  13. Abravanel said

    I completely agree with you that building on top of a cemetery, even if disused, is wrong. I fully expect israeli activists to protest and the same way I expect greek activists to protest.

    Even better: the works in Jerusalem have halted, pending a ruling of the Supreme Court which often rules against the israeli state. I believe that the work in Jerusalem should be halted permanently and the parking lot re-converted to it’s prior 1927 state as a cemetery. The same way the ownership of the 523.000 square meters of the jewish cemetery in Thessaloníki should return to the Jewish Community of Thessaloniki and at least some part of the land should be used to built a memorial to the cemetery laying below, while the rest should be agreed to be used by the University with no monetary lease as an offer of the Jewish Community to the city.

  14. Abravanel said

    Just posting a couple of links to serve in a future post:

    1. H.H. the Metropolite Anthimos: «We can not be one with those who do not have the same religion as us»
    http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=112,dt=10.05.2006,id=80285388,94475340

    2. A remaining jewish tomb, still visible in the University of Thessaloniki:
    http://glypto.wordpress.com/2007/03/15/evraiko-necrotafio-thessaloniki/

  15. Antilogia said

    The same way the ownership of the 523.000 square meters of the jewish cemetery in Thessaloníki should return to the Jewish Community of Thessaloniki and at least some part of the land should be used to built a memorial to the cemetery laying below, while the rest should be agreed to be used by the University with no monetary lease as an offer of the Jewish Community to the city.

    Don’t misunderstand me, but I think that given the nature of the greek state (or any state for that matter) when it comes to land property, the restoration to its former use is a bit too much to pursue.
    However a monument in commemoration of the cemetery is perfectly reasonable, I find it an obvious request.

  16. as Anthimos said Jews just died in WWII
    http://666storage.blogspot.com/2008/06/blog-post_25.html

  17. Thessaloniki Jews just died in WWII said the Bishop
    http://666storage.blogspot.com/2008/06/blog-post_25.html

  18. Xenos said

    «Given the nature of the Greek state…» the restoration of property is too much to ask? Why? Is this a fascist country? I am just astonished at how Greek people accept injustice, corruption, criminal behaviour etc. and simply say «Ellada einai». Do you have no pride in your country? In the rest of Europe, we just stand and look in horror at the lack of national pride and the fake nationalism {aka racism] that prevails.

  19. Antilogia said

    @Xenos

    Why? Is this a fascist country?

    It isn’t (I suppose).
    But this is a legal issue as well. Abravanel asks for the restoration of the ownership to its former (pre-war) status. I don’t know how valid is that on legal grounds.
    It’s easy to speak about the «immorality» of that decision.
    However, the legitimacy of such a request is another story. I mean in terms of property titles and the transfer of ownership to the state.

    To be more specific I am aware of post-war reparations that Greece paid to Israel, for lost jewish properties during the war and I don’t think the cemetery was excluded back then.
    That’s what I meant by the «nature of the state». States tend to make arrangements (or «arrangements») not always withholding individual property rights.

    E.g. I am sure Abravanel is aware of vast reparations paid to Israel by Germany and Swiss banks on behalf of Jews escaping the Holocaust, and which they didn’t actually make it to their eligible holders.
    I don’t think he would like to see this case as being part of what has been described as the «Holocaust industry».

    In the rest of Europe, we just stand and look in horror at the lack of national pride and the fake nationalism {aka racism] that prevails.

    Really? What part of Europe is that? In any case, in this part of Europe, we don’t burn Turks alive and then call it a «dreadful incident».

  20. Abravanel said

    @ Xenos
    No, Greece is not a fascist country and there is little discriminatory legislation in per se. The problem is that in Greece laws are not respected and in particular hate speech is not considered morally wrong unless addressed to christian greeks. Plus there is a problem with historic memory and there is reluctance to accept into the greek nation of groups considered «foreigners» like jews.

    Still you are correct in identifying the lack of interest of the general greek population in improving Greece. As you correctly say, racism exists all over Europe, but at least outside Greece somebody does care.

    @ Xenos
    I object to the term «holocaust industry» and I think it is used as a pretext to say in other words «ok, we paid you so shut up». The reparations were not vast and were not to compensate the looting of property of european jews. The restorations were paid from the Federal Republic of Germany to Israel to cover the costs of re-settlement of holocaust survivors from german occupied european countries from Europe to Israel; somebody could argue that Germany paid to get rid of the remaining jews, (I do not agree with this theory of course, just offer it to show another way of looking into the matter).

    They were some reparations paid to european jews as well but they often did not arrive to their rightful owners as you correctly state; sincerely Ι must admit that they weren’t even a fraction of the looting. The swiss banks offered a small portion of dormant jewish accounts which they had denied access for years in order to take advantage of them. In any case these cases do not cover the looting that was responsibility greek collaborators of the germans, which were traitors and war criminals.

    Greece after the war voted a law which promised to respect jewish property – anyone familiar with history would acknowledge that this law was a tribute to the fairness of the greek state. Unfortunately the greek collaborators of the germans were quickly incorporated into the structure of the greek state in order to fight communism and this stopped the implementation of the law and their judgment. After the war the Jewish Communities pressed charges against the jewish collaborators and christian ones alike – all of the jewish ones were convicted but none of the christian ones. I repeat this story, which I’m sure you are aware of, to say that greek law and international law acknowledge fully the rights of the jewish communities. For reasons tied, some claim, to political intimidation the communities have not claimed their rights or have forfeited them; eg the orphanage St.Stylianos was built illegally on soil of the Jewish Community of Thessaloniki. The JCT has clearly said that it has no will to reclaim the land and has leased it to the structure in a multi decade lease for 1 drachma per year (0.003 euro).

    But it isn’t just jews who claim money: the greek town of Distomo suffered during the german occupaion and 218 inhabitants were brutally murdered by the germans. Recently they claimed and were awarded by greek courts 30.000.000 euro, to be paid by Germany. Should we talk about a «Holocaust Industry» in Greece? Please take notice that if the greek jews should have asked a similar restoration they should have been awarded 8.250.000.000 euros (8 billion euro). But jews are accused of being greedy and continually asking for money. What I see is that Greece, (both the town of Distomo but also the official State of Greece), requests either restoration or return of looted property, while greek jews ask simply to have a monument built to their dead on jewish property and see their request turned down by the same persons who benefit from this illegal usurpation.

    My view is not to reclaim the whole property. I have written in multiple occasions that an adequate solution would be simply to built an appropriate memorial on university grounds, (not an obscure plaque which nobody would know of) and maybe name the new subway station as «Old Jewish Cemetery Station». The University should agree to advance a chair of Hebrew Studies and the JCT should offer the land in perennial gratuitous lease. But if the University denies even the simplest of all monument to be built, like it does today, I think that the JCT should claim the area since it faces a hostile climate and not collaboration. I’m sure that the town of Distomo (copy of their claims) and the official greek state (copy of it’s claims) would be in complete agreement with my thesis. ;)

  21. Antilogia said

    I see there is a criminal case against collaborators (are they alive?) and another on the property issue.
    On the latter I mentioned a post-war aggreement between Greece and Israel concerning jewish properties in Greece (Plastiras-Venizelos governments), but you didn’t comment on that.

    You probably know that the term «Holocaust Industry» is coined by Norman Finkelstein, a son of Holocaust survivors. I ‘m not fully familiar with the specifics of his case, but he seems to have a rather different view from yours on the scale of the reparations and more importantly on where did the money go (in many cases, not to those who actually suffered the Holocaust).

    About Distomo and the Germans, I suppose you know that Greece or any (non-jewish)greek citizen has received from Germany a big zero in terms of reparations. Had it not been for the american Marshall plan I don’t know how this country could have pulled it off.
    In the first post-war years, the excuse was that they hired greek immigrants there to rebuild their industry, and in late years the excuse is that they have already given enough money through the EU.

    The Distomo case is about manslaughter, not land confiscation.
    I’d like to see them succeeding but they have no chance whatsoever. After all the greek state has done nothing all these years to support a reparation claim, despite the fact that Germans left Greece with the entire gold deposit of the Greek Central Bank.

  22. Abravanel said

    There is a criminal case that persons like Governor Generel Simonidis, the person who contributed personally to the destruction of the cemetery, were not prosecuted after the war. The fruit of theiρ collaboration is still here – it is not a case of who owns what. The cemetery was property of the JCT – it was confiscated in 1944, without any compensation as the Constitution prescribes, on the grounds that «it was abandoned by it’s owners». We are not judges here but I think you can easily see how morally wrong is this decision and how legally problematic.

    Also Greece has shown an impressive indifference in prosecuting german war criminals, indifferently if it regarded slaughter or jews or christians. Even when inter-state relations were not in stake it categorically refused to persecute them, both the Central Board of Jewish Communities and Distomo Municipality have expressed their disappointment in this matter. Please read how Greece freed convicted war criminals in change of loans in this excelent article by mr.Fleischer, (the last paragraph is almost comical)..

    To my knowledge there is no agreement between Israel and Greece on the matters regarding properties of jewish individuals in Greece. I have also searched the internet before responding and I still do not find anything. To tell the truth this is impossible because Israel cannot represent greek citizens; please do re-check your sources because you seem to be mistaken.

    You are also incorrect that Greece has not received restorations from Germany. In 1960 the greek government received 115.000.000 german marks and agreed to forfeit further claims, pending future demands from individual citizens. This sum in theory should have been distributed to the victims of persecution, as the agreement stated, including entities like the jews of Thessaloniki and the christians of Distomo. Neither party, nor anybody else saw a single pfenig from these. This is a direct consequence of the extended corruption that plagued the greek state. Read more on Distomo here.

    Greece indeed tried with late A.Papandreou to raise the matter of further reparations but K.Simitis discontinued the project. What Greece can do is claim the restoration of the loan that was forced to emit to the Reich Germany and is not affected by the 1960 treaty. The jewish community recently has engaged in an effort to recover the ransom paid to Merten in 1943, read more about it here.

    I have read Finkelstein’s book and I admit I am not a historian to emit a judgement on the validity of his thesis. If I may, I noted though a certain bias from one who had little contact with european jewry and limited himself in jewish organizations in US and Israel. I am not sure that cases like the Thessaloniki cemetery really interested him and he only limited himself in a US prospective. As I’ve said I am not always in agreement with the practices regarding the Shoah of US based organizations. On a sidenote, the fact that he is the son of Shoah survivors mean nothing; myself or Rena Molho are descendants of people who were in the camps and see matters differently. Does the fact that, me too, touched the tattooed with blue ink arms of my family make me infallible?

  23. Abravanel said

    By the way the links provided by mr.Dimitras are fantastic!
    Μπορεί να είναι έτσι, αλλά είχαν μείνει τόσο λίγοι και η διάθεση των γηγενών και όσων ήλθαν από την απώλεια των αλησμόνητων πατρίδων φαίνεται ότι διεκδικούσε πλέον μια παρουσία της Θεσσαλονίκης απαλλαγμένη από τα ξένα στοιχεία.

    …the will of the indigenous population and those who came from Asia Minor as refugees, was that they claimed a Thessaloniki ridden of foreign elements…

    Greek citizens who had fought in the greek army in tenths of thousands were after the war foreign elements… Personally I’m disgusted.

  24. I think there are worse parts:

    Η πολιτισμική παρουσία των Εβραίων έλειψε διότι έλειψε ο πληθυσμός. Έμειναν λίγοι. Εγώ τους βλέπω πάντοτε, χαιρετούμεθα και σε όλες τους τις εκδηλώσεις όταν ζητούν δεν πάω εγώ βέβαια αλλά ο πρωτοσύγκελος που θα με εκπροσωπήσει. Πολλοί πέθαναν κατά τη διάρκεια του πολέμου. Όμως οι χριστιανοί εδώ φέρθηκαν στους Εβραίους πολύ καλά. Τώρα, αν κάποιοι υπήρξαν και με παραπτώματα, αυτά συμβαίνουν σε όλες τις περιόδους.

    «Many died during the war» – that is all!

    «In all their manifestations when they invite me I do not go, I just send the protosyggelos» – I assume this includes Holocaust Day events when even political leaders are present and in Athens I think even the late Christodoulos has gone to some.

    Anthimos does not want any contamination apparently that will tarnish his image with the largely anti-Semite flock of his out there.

  25. offshore said

    ‘Let them go where their country is’. Well the Jews should go to Israel, according to this statement, my question is where should the Catholics go. There is more than one catholic country. Some people are just ‘amazing’.
    PS. May I ask what does Shoah stand for?

    Could I ask Xenos? Do you really think that calling an entire country ‘fascist’ and ‘racist’ is the best approach? Inevitably you will get the ‘go back home’ answer. The whole immigration thing is still new in this country and most Greeks don’t know how to deal with the immigrants. No point ‘adding oil to the fire’.

  26. Xenos said

    If you follow this racist line of reasoning, that «they should go to where their country is», then the massive Greek diaspora should be kicked out of the USA, Canada, Germany, Australia etc. (God knows what they would do in Greece, anyway, with the economy as it is.) Almost every country of the world is multiethnic, and there is nothing wrong with that. It is backward countries that people flee, because of violence and poverty, that tend to have the idea that they are monocultural. Why Greeks persist in thinking like this, is really only a matter of school indoctrination over the last century.

    Immigration is not new to Greece: this is just an excuse for racism. The refugees of 1923 suffered racism in Greece, and the non-Greek immigrants who started to arrive in the 1970s also knew what it was about. I think 80 years is long enough for anyone to start to pick up a few ideas. The legal and political fact is that Greece is a member state of the EU and is obliged to accept the laws and values that everyone else does. End of discussion.

  27. offshore said

    @ XENOS you either have to polish your English or start actually reading when ‘reading’. Unless you deliberately didn’t see my when firstly, I used the words of Anthimos secondly, my question about where should the Catholics go and thirdly the remark!
    In case you want to continue to argue with someone you’ll have to find another person. Calling me a racist or a fascist or telling me that I don’t accept a multicultural society will sound REALLY, well not really intelligent if not stupid. Considering that I come from a mixed marriage and I’m not an Orthodox.
    PS. A general remark, too much coffee is bad for one’s nerves.

  28. offshore said

    some part of my post fanished:’… my inverted commas when firstly…’

  29. Xenos said

    Offshore: I did not call you a racist. I used the word in reference to mainstream thinking in Greece. You asked me if I think that my strategy is a good one: my answer is yes, partly for the reasons given above. Of course, it does not mean that you are racist if you repeat the (conventional) racist opinions of others, but you would be well advised not to do so.

  30. offshore said

    @xenos, did you not see my question or you just don’t want to see it? If you wonder where should the Catholics go, you practically show the irrationality of the whole argument (in this case the words of Anthimos- that I had put inside inverted commas). I cannot comment on certain view if I don’t add the comment itself.
    Yes, you inevitably called me a racist as you called the majority of the nation racist.
    According to your advice I should not comment on Anthimos words as I cannot repeat his views. Considering that I cannot just say if I agree or disagree (in this case disagree) with somebody’s statement unless I quote the statement itself.

    Immigration is new in this country, as we are the first generation ( I believe) that didn’t have to emigrate ourselves in order to find a better life. I myself am the descendant of refugees but the only time that I lived in a foreign country was to study. See my point?

  31. Xenos said

    Your analogy with Catholics is misplaced, since that religion does not imply an ethnicity. Insofar as quoting objectionable remarks is concerned, it is normal practice to make VERY clear when doing so what your own views are. I read, and continue to read, your post (#25) as being moderately tolerant of the objectionable remarks.

    I still do not accept that immigration is new to Greece. Your last post means that emigration is less common for Greeks, which is a rather different point. Besides, the latest evidence suggests that emigration from Greece is now rather more common than it was ten years ago. Regardless of the migration of Greeks, dealing with «newcomers» in Greece has been a requirement since the creation of the Greek nation state. This «immigration is new» idea is merely self-justification of Greek lack of cultural tolerance.

  32. offshore said

    @Xenos“I want you to bring to me – said Anthimos of Alexandroupolis, the names of the Catholics or the Jews who have fallen in the Epic of Albania. It is a matter of blood and sacrifice. We are going to get killed and others shall enjoy the freedoms? Let them go where their country is.“ He distinctly said Catholics and Jews, and my question was where should the Catholics go considering that there is more than one catholic country (or you didn’t see my question?)
    ‘Let them go where their country is’. Well the Jews should go to Israel, according to this statement, my question is where should the Catholics go. There is more than one catholic country. Some people are just ‘amazing’. I cannot just comment about this statement unless I actually quote it. Saying that I agree or disagree is not enough, I have to be specific otherwise there is no argument.
    If you DON’T see the inverted commas THIS time EITHER there is not much that I can do BECAUSE it will mean that you DON’T WANT to see them. So any further conversation will no longer be fertile.
    How more CLEAR can inverted commas be?
    When I was growing up there were not that many immigrants around and I am certainly not 80 years old. Greece was too poor a country to be of any appeal to any foreigners.
    Saying that Jews, blacks, Pakistanis etc. are… (whatever racist or offensive remark) sounds as bad as saying the majority of Greeks are fascists and racists. Fanaticism of any form is dangerous.
    Unless you are willing to actually SEE my inverted commas I can’t see the point of continuing this conversation as you are using statements that are not mine as mine.

    I’ve got this strange feeling that there is no one else in this blog, or just there are no comments from third parties.

  33. Xenos said

    Offshore: you are missing the point, which is why we are arguing like this. The problem with the racist comments of Anthimos is not that there is no ethnic group called Catholics or any single country that hosts such an ethnic group (this just shows the stupidity of the man] but that he genuinely believes that people belong only in «their» country. This is racist and actually reflects common beliefs among the Greek population.

    For the record, I did not say that Greeks are fascist. I merely asked if Greece is a fascist country, as an explanation for why property claims cannot be considered in Greece. Please pay more careful attention to wording, even if English is not your native language. These are delicate issues, and we all tread a fine line when we discuss them.

  34. offshore said

    «“Given the nature of the Greek state…” the restoration of property is too much to ask? Why? Is this a fascist country? I am just astonished at how Greek people accept injustice, corruption, criminal behaviour etc. and simply say “Ellada einai”. Do you have no pride in your country? In the rest of Europe, we just stand and look in horror at the lack of national pride and the fake nationalism {aka racism] that prevails.»
    «It is backward countries that people flee, because of violence and poverty, that tend to have the idea that they are monocultural. Why Greeks persist in thinking like this, is really only a matter of school indoctrination over the last century.
    «Offshore: I did not call you a racist. I used the word in reference to mainstream thinking in Greece.»
    «…self-justification of Greek lack of cultural tolerance.»
    No, you didn’t not say all, you either said or implied that MOST are.(and I never said that you said ALL. I said that you said the the MAJORITY). Well I wont’ just sit here and accept it. Xenos or not racism has no colour, no religion and no nationality as some people have proven over the time.

  35. offshore said

    Could some tell me what does Shoah stand for? Or no one is reading my questions?

  36. Xenos said

    My dear Greek friend, Offshore: I advise you to take a little more education, so that you can actually understand what people are saying. It will also help you in making your own arguments, instead of giving hysterical responses to accurate descriptions of contemporary Greek reality.

    By the way, just quoting people means nothing. Nothing at all. So why have you compiled a post of quotations from my posts? It makes no sense, but looks like an attempt to attack me. Rather lame, though.

  37. offshore said

    I can only hold a civilised conversation, and this is not one. Whatever you like it or not you have no right WHATSOEVER to refer to my education and telling me that I’m responding in a hysterical way, it’s way too rude and unacceptable.

    For the last time, I can only comment on specific statements and the only way to show which are those statements is to quote.

    Oh, one last thing if I want to attack someone, firstly I must know the person personally (I don’t argue with my PC screen), secondly this person must have done something to me (you are a complete stranger so you can’t have harmed me in any way) and thirdly this person must be important to me (you are a total stranger therefore I cannot have any feelings towards you, neither positive nor negative).

    By the way if I call someone a racist Jew I get sued (quite rightly so), but if someone calls me a racist Greek I should just keep my mouth shut. Really?
    Don’t bother to reply, I only chat with objective and polite people.

    A very silent blog indeed, or is it the ‘slag off the Greeks’ blog?

  38. Xenos said

    I repeat, as you refuse to hear it: I did not call you a racist. You chose to make that interpretation, which says something about you rather than about me.

  39. Abravanel said

    @ offshore:
    Apologies for the delay. Shoah is a hebrew word for total catastrophe, calamity, destruction. It’s usage is preferred over the word Holocaust which has come to mean the extermination of 6.000.000 jews. Why? Long story but bottom line is that the word Holocaust has a religious background and implies that they were sacrificed, which of course is not true. More on the etymology here. (mental note to myself to make a post on it).

    I apologize for my absence, I would have intervened in the merry exchange of posts with Xenos, but I was away from the blog for the past day or two.

    By the way, you don’t get sued if you call a jew an asshole or he’s keen to money – although you are responsible for vituperation as calling your neighbour an bastard for his latest party keeping you up. You are liable for violating the law if you advocate physical violence as mr.Plevris did.

    On the kind remarks on the «salg off the greeks» please make sur you’ve read a couple of posts first. I’ve always stressed that greeks are no more racist than most european countries. Metropolite Anthimos is not the first religious figure in Europe to have said like that. What makes Greece unique is the lack of opposition against this kinδ of speech or mentality. That nobody gives a damn if a jewish tomb gets destroyed or a pakistani gets beaten. Please look at my posts on pakistanis getting beaten by racist Greeks and racist italians and how the society dealt with the event. :)

    @ xenos:
    You catch flies with honey and not with vinegar, says a wise proverb, (and offshore is not a fly :) ). Try and show moderation when emitting judgments or implying things.

    Still you are correct on Greece not being new to immigration. There is a blog named Pontos&Aristera which has some interesting stuff on the matter plus dimitrisdoctor.blogspot.com had written a fantastic post but I’m afraid he’s having problems with his blog.

  40. Xenos said

    Abravanel: you are right with the proverb, but I have no patience left with these things. My finite resources of that commodity have been exhausted by years of living in Greece and having to repeat everything one (or several) million times.

  41. Abravanel said

    I do not agree with you, offshore had not said anything that objectionable to deserve such a strict reply – even if she was unaware of a couple of things, this does not imply malice and does not make her one of the habitual racists. I welcome your input but o try to remember that if we have something more than the bigotted fascists is that we always know we have a human being in front of us instead of a subhuman.

    And remember that I’ve been asked many more times than you if the jews have destroyed Twin Towers so no excuse for exhaustion! :P

  42. TD said

    I am a regular reader of the blog and have come across some statements by Xenos. Offshore has responded very eloquently to Xenos, but I had meant to respond to him/her firsthand myself. Offshore beat me to it – and did so very eloquently.

    I am afraid that Xenos has engaged in wholesale generalizations and has made (apparently) prejudiced statements in several entries. See posting n. 20 under «Jewish cemetery:»

    «It seems that you people (namely Greeks) will never change: you are so convinced that you are right, that it is actually a dogma. I’ll state it formally for you: “Greeks are always right”. Of course, everyone else is wrong, evil, foolish, anti-Greek, pro-Jew {tick box as appropriate].»

    On a site committed to fighting anti-semitism and every other form of racism, statements like these smell of pungent racism themselves. Personal attacks (posting no 36 above by Xenos: «I advise you to take a little more education») also speak volumes.

    Abravanel-
    Some (hopefully constructive) criticism: You «own» and moderate this blog-site. You have been «learning on the job» and your moderating has been admirable. But I think you have been rather generous towards Xenos’s stringent tirades against Greeks.

    Offshore-
    I am sorry if you felt a bit deserted.

    Xenos-
    You sound very angry and you «have run out of patience.» Give us a break. And do some introspection.

    TD

  43. Xenos said

    TD: You have nothing to say, other than hypocritical political correctness. It is generally not possible to speak about anything in the social world without some degree of generalisation, and I do it after extensive and critical self-reflection. Very few people who engage in ideological arguments with me seem capable of any self-reflection at all. And yes, I get very angry with the situation of racial intolerance in Greece, which is insidious and all-pervading.

  44. TD said

    Xenos-

    Your intemperate remarks overshadow any good intentions.

    If you had any measure of introspection, you might see what I see: A pompous individual with «a chip on his shoulder» that sees himself as a martyr – witness the eponym «Xenos».

    With the exception of the pathological racists and anti-Semites, the rest of us want to recognize and confront our own fear and skepticism of «others»; and to engage in a civilized dialogue.

    We are not interested in self-righteous polemics and wholesale or personal attacks.

    TD

  45. offshore said

    hi everyone, I’ve just came back from a weekend in Evoia island so I’m in a good mood. I strongly recommend horse ridding. Those wonderful, magnificent and beautiful animals will calm everybody down. They are just perfect!

    @TD thanx for your help, at some point I thought that it must have been only me that saw things in this way.

    @Abravanel I’ll insist on immigration and emigration being new to this country. And here is why: when I came here in 1987 I was the only foreign child at school and my mother was the only foreign person in the entire area. The school officials didn’t know how to fill in the forms and how to handle the whole thing. They were in despair as they had to call Athens all the time.
    Nowdays, I have foreign friends and neighbours, I go to shops that are owned by foreigners, make appointments with foreign doctors and have foreign students. (I’m talking about the same town) This didn’t exist 20 years ago.
    I believe that you relay too heavily on official statistics but they normally carry out researches in urban areas and not in the province.
    Thanx about the explaination about Shoah.
    PS. Bees don’t know that there might be a trap behind the honey, many humans thus do. :)

  46. Abravanel said

    @ TD
    You are correct on me being lax on Xenos. And you are correct on me having to moderate – I have been thinking a lot for the past week or so on the moderation policy to follow here. The only thing I do know is that we are all bound by the WordPress TOS and the laws of defamation of California, (technically not of the laws of Greece). This is not a forum but a website that voices my personal views, so I have the moral right to censor whatever I want to. On the other hand keeping the comments open means that I readily accept dialogue so morally I cannot censor comments unless violating the TOS or defamation laws. A loooong discussion not to be held now – for the time being I accept personal responsibility.

    On the subject I would like to repeat that I do not agree with Xenos views on Greece. I am the first to denounce the lack of civil opposition against racism but that does not make all greeks mean KKK members. Plus the use of stereotypes like the one on greeks being not the most honest when it comes to money offends me personally as a greek and is a poor choice of insult to be made at this blog, when jews have been accused of being all to fond to money.

    I have written this small piece because as I’ve said I accept personal responsibility, (I clarify not legal – we live in dangerous times :) ).

    @ xenos
    You know who that I’m part of the same people who has to listen to the same jews-rule-the-world stuff for all my life. You know that I oppose racism in general and antisemitism in specific. So when I agree that you’re being too polemic and border on rudeness, do not think that I’m being politically correct but only trying to be consistent with my beliefs. Please try and think how would you judge a person who would be in disagreement with me on the fact that the Thessaloniki Municipality destroyed the cemetery and asked me to go get an education? Wouldn’t you think what a bloody antisemite the guy is?

    In any case I ask you to be polite and refrain from generalizing, especially keeping in mind that when you say «you greeks» means me too. Plus we’ve ended up talking about this nonsense instead on focusing on the subject – this is one thing which I in my small dictatorship I shall not tolerate.

    @ offshore
    The refugees that were mentioned are not your africans, pakistani, albanians. These are the pontic and asia minor greeks which came in mass in 1922-1924. These were under many aspects considered foreigners and themselves had a hard time integrating often even having difficulties with the greek language. For many decades it was considered shameful to admit that you were of asia minor or pontic origin and for a long period the refugees faced proper racism against them by the mainland greeks.

    So it not completely true that Greece was new to immigration of persons with foreign customs and often foreign languages who were deemed as outsiders. One can afterwards ask oneself on if and how the common historic memory was preserved but this is another issue. Still would you please elaborate on why you think I relay myself too heavily on statistics? I do not get it. :)

  47. TD said

    Abravanel-
    You summed up the whole exchange very nicely. And you should not have to worry about the likes of me and Xenos «insulting» each other.

    Xenos-
    I do not doubt your good intentions. You have probably learnt some Greek. ΠΕΡΑΣΜΕΝΑ ΞΕΧΑΣΜΕΝΑ.

    TD

  48. offshore said

    Statistics will show that there were plenty of foreigners in Athens let’s say 20 years ago but it won’t apply to the entire Greece, that’s what I meant. What I’m trying to say is that there will always be foreigners in the capital cities (I’m not talking about Athens only) and major urban areas.

    Now that we’ve established the definition of a foreigner you are correct as to immigration not being new. Nevertheless, we the descendants have been assimilated by the society whereas the children of the ‘new’ immigrants haven’t lost their identity yet. Which is a good thing by the way.
    Oh boy, now I’m taking the risk of being told that I support sectarianism but that’s not the case. I wish I knew about Pontos and Asia Minor, I’ve got roots there but know almost nothing about my ancestors.
    Oh, and I’m the first to tell Pontiaka anekdota, I’m the first to tell any witty joke as long as it is not insulting.

  49. Pseudonym said

    Ενδιαφέρουσα είναι βέβαια η άποψη του Διεθνούς Μουσείου Ολοκαυτώματος γι’ αυτό που έγινε στη Θεσσαλονίκη:
    http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/greece/greek/salonika.htm
    «Γιατί τόσο πολλοί Εβραίοι από τη Θεσσαλονίκη χάθηκαν; Πρώτον, η Θεσσαλονίκη ήταν κάτω από τη Γερμανική κατοχή. Δεύτερον, οι Εβραίοι ήταν συγκεντρωμένοι, κυρίως, στην πόλη. Τρίτον, δεν ήξεραν ότι τους μετέφεραν σε κέντρα εξόντωσης, πίστεψαν ο πρόσχημα των Γερμανών, ότι τους πήγαιναν να δουλέψουν στην Πολωνία. Επιπλέον, ο αμφιλεγόμενος Ραβίνος Κορέτζ, που ήταν επικεφαλής της Εβραϊκής κοινότητας, σύμφωνα με πληροφορίες, βοήθησε τους Γερμανούς να οργανώσουν αποτελεσματικές συλλήψεις. Επίσης, οι Εβραίοι της Θεσσαλονίκης μιλούσαν Λαδίνο, κατά συνέπεια η προφορά τους έκανε να ξεχωρίζουν. Ενώ υπήρχε δυνατότητα δραπέτευσης, οι περισσότεροι, φοβούμενοι το χωρισμό από τις οικογένειες τους, δεν εκμεταλλεύτηκαν τις προσφερόμενες επιλογές διαφυγής.»

  50. Pseudonym said

    How come I see that almost all of your post are filled with lies, misconceptions or intentionally left out evidence. I suppose that the text above from the US Holocaust Museum is very clear of what happened in Thessaloniki during the German occupation and the destruction of the Jews of the city.
    According to the museum, besides the politics of Jewish destruction by the Nazis, the main blame goes to the Rabbi of Thessaloniki. The Greeks of the city offered escape routes to their cocitizens, which most of the Thessalonician Jews refused, due to the orders of their rabbi. The bishop of Thessaloniki, together with the Greeks of the city, had try at vain to conveice their copatriots to escape the city. They did not. I am aware of a person who has been saved by the bishop of Thessaloniki by hiding him in monasteries in Chalkidiki. This Thessalonician Jew and most of his family has never left the city after the war, their estate was reinstated to them right after liberation. They are one of the most prominent families of the city.

    I think you should reinstate Metropolite Anthimos.

    I repeat the previous post in English

    http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/greece/nonflash/eng/salonika.htm
    Several factors contributed the the loss of such a large number of Jews from Thessaloniki. Thessaloniki was under direct German occupation. The Jewish community was highly concentrated in the city. Jews had no idea that they were going to killing centers; they believed the German subterfuge that they were going to work in Poland. Moreover, the controversial Head Rabbi, Koretz, reportedly assisted the Germans in organizing efficient roundups. Because the Jews of Thessaloniki spoke Ladino, their spoken Greek was easily distinguishable. While the possibility of escape existed, most Jews, fearing separation from their families, did not take advantage of the available escape options.

  51. Pseudonym said

    http://www.jmth.gr/web/thejews/pages/pages/history.htm

    The first German armed columns though, entered Thessaloniki on April 9, 1941. Two days later, the Messagero, the sole surviving Judeo-Spanish daily paper, was suppressed, and a number of houses and public buildings requisitioned for military needs, including the Jewish hospital founded by Baron de Hirsch and bearing his name. The Germans nominated a new president of the community to transmit their orders.

    In the summer of 1942, orders were issued for all adult male Jews between the ages of 18 to 45 to present themselves at Liberty Square to be enrolled for forced labor. At the appointed day, 6,000-7,000 of them were packed together under the broiling sun, until the afternoon, surrounded by companies of soldiers armed with machine guns. Many were sent off immediately to malaria stricken areas with very little food. Within ten weeks, 12% of those taken had died.

    After prolonged negotiations with the Jewish Community of Thessaloniki, the Germans ultimately agreed to exempt the Jews from forced labor in return for a ransom of two and a half billion drachmae, an exorbitant amount of money for that period, which the community raised with great difficulty. In December 1942, the ancient cemetery, containing nearly 500,000 graves and dating back certainly to the 15th century, was expropriated and thus became a quarry for the entire city. Tombstones of inestimable historic value were removed regardless of age and could still be seen all over the city as paving stones until some time ago.

    At this stage, the Germans replaced the president of the community with Rabbi Dr. Zvi Koretz. The community hoped that since he spoke German, he would be effective in his dealings with the German authorities. He became convinced that by unquestioning compliance, the Nazis might be mollified. He therefore urged the community to comply with the German instructions.
    On February 6, 1943 a commission headed by Dieter Wisliceny and Alois Brunner arrived in Thessaloniki to put the racial laws into operation. Two days later an order was issued forcing all Jews to wear the yellow Magen David; their shops and offices had to be similarly marked. A number of areas were marked off in those districts that were largely inhabited by Jews. It was the first time in almost 2.000 years that the Jews of Thessaloniki were forced to live in ghettos. The concept of ghetto was not known to the Jews of Thessaloniki until that day. Any Jew who changed his residence without permission was treated as a deserter and shot outright. No Jew was allowed on streets after nightfall; no Jew was allowed to use the telephone; no Jew could ride on the tramway.

    Half a century before, Baron de Hirsch had paid for the construction near the railway station of a number of little houses, to give shelter to Jewish refugees from the Russian pogroms. On the morning of March 14, the inhabitants of the Hirsch quarter were instructed to assemble in the local synagogue, where they were informed by Rabbi Koretz that they were to be deported to Poland. He informed them that they would find a new home there, among their own people. The next morning, the inhabitants of the quarter were assembled and marched to the station, where they were driven into the waiting cars, which were soon overloaded to twice their capacity, closed, then sealed, and off to Poland.

    The Hirsch quarter was now clear and ready to receive a new convoy. In During the next few months, new convoys arrived from various Jewish neighborhoods of the city and they were sent off to the Auschwitz and Birkenau extermination camps. The last convoy left in the 7th of August 1943.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Greece#World_War_II_and_the_Holocaust
    World War II and the Holocaust

    See also: Axis Occupation of Greece

    Population of Thessaloniki[13]
    Year Total Population Jewish Population Jewish Percentage
    1842 70,000 36,000 51%
    1870 90,000 50,000 56%
    1882/84 85,000 48,000 56%
    1902 126,000 62,000 49%
    1913 157,889 61,439 39%
    1943 53,000
    2000 363,987 1,000 0.3%

    During World War II, Greece was conquered by Nazi Germany and occupied by the Axis powers. 12, 898 Greek Jews fought in the Greek army, one of the best-known being Colonel Mordechai Frizis, which first successfully repelled the Italian Army, but was overwhelmed by German forces.[8] 86% of the Greek Jews, especially those in the areas occupied by Nazi Germany and Bulgaria, were murdered despite efforts by the Greek Orthodox Church hierarchy and many individual Christian Greeks to shelter Jews. Although the Germans and Bulgarians[14] deported a great number of Greek Jews, others were successfully hidden by their Greek neighbours.

    On July 11, 1942, the Jews of Thessaloniki were rounded up in preparation for deportation to the German camps. The community paid a fee of 2.5 billion drachmas for their freedom, the effect of which was only to delay deportation until the following March. 46,091 people were sent to Auschwitz. 1,950 returned[2] to find most of their sixty synagogues and schools destroyed.[13] Many survivors emigrated to Israel and the United States.[2] Today the Jewish population of Thessaloniki numbers roughly 1,000, and maintains two synagogues.[13]

    The Foundation for the Advancement of Sephardic Studies and Culture writes «One cannot forget the repeated initiatives of the head of the Metropolitan See of Thessaloniki, Gennadios, against the deportations, and most of all, the official letter of protest signed in Athens on March 23, 1943, by Archbishop Damaskinos, along with 27 prominent leaders of cultural, academic and professional organizations. The document, written in a very sharp language, refers to unbreakable bonds between Christian Orthodox and Jews, identifying them jointly as Greeks, without differentiation. It is noteworthy that such a document is unique in the whole of occupied Europe, in character, content and purpose».[2]

    In Corfu after the fall of Italian fascism in 1943, the Nazis took control of the island. Corfu’s mayor at the time, Kollas, was a known collaborator and various anti-semitic laws were passed by the Nazis that now formed the occupation government of the island.[15] In early June 1944, while the Allies bombed Corfu as a diversion from the landing in Normandy, the Gestapo rounded up the Jews of the city, temporarily incarcerated them at the old fort (Palaio Frourio) and on the 10th of June sent them to Auschwitz where very few survived.[15][16] However, approximately two hundred out of a total population of 1900 managed to flee.[17] Many among the local populace at the time provided shelter and refuge to those 200 Jews that managed to escape the Nazis.[18] As well, a prominent section of the old town is to this day called Evraiki (Εβραική) meaning Jewish suburb in recognition of the Jewish contribution and continued presence in Corfu city. An active Synagogue (Συναγωγή) is an integral part of Evraiki today with about 65 members.[17]

    The 275 Jews of the island of Zakynthos, however, survived the Holocaust. When the island’s mayor, Carrer, was presented with the German order to hand over a list of Jews, Bishop Chrysostomos returned to the Germans with a list of two names; his and the mayor’s. The island’s population hid every member of the Jewish community. When the island was almost levelled by the great earthquake of 1953, the first relief came from the state of Israel, with a message that read «The Jews of Zakynthos have never forgotten their Mayor or their beloved Bishop and what they did for us.»[3]

    Muslim Cham Albanians collobarated with Nazis and played an active part in the Holocaust in Greece, including the round-up and expulsion to Auschwitz and Birkenau of the 2,000 strong Romaniotes Greek-Jewish community of Ioannina in April 1944 [19]

  52. Abravanel said

    The Greeks of the city offered escape routes to their cocitizens, which most of the Thessalonician Jews refused, due to the orders of their rabbi. The bishop of Thessaloniki, together with the Greeks of the city, had try at vain to conveice their copatriots to escape the city.

    I think you got a bit carried away – Metropolite Anthimos made two statements: one that no christian looted jewish property and the second that no jew died in WW2 in the ranks of the greek army. The rest stuff you copy/pasted are simply an effort to change subject – plus I don’t think you really want to enter this subject…

    I provided at least one photo showing the Metropolis of Thessaloniki benefitting from looted gravestones. Also I provided with evidence of 12.898 Jews fighitng in the Greek Army.

    Was or was it not Metropolite Anthimos incorrect in his statements? Was it or was it not his last statement grossly racist against Jewish Greeks, implying that they were not real patriots?

  53. […] Οκτώβριος 28 2008 Πριν κάποιο καιρό είχα ασχοληθεί με ορισμένες δηλώσεις του Μητροπολίτη Θεσσαλονίκης Ανθι�… ο οποίος είχε αμφισβητήσει όχι μόνο το δικαίωμα των […]

  54. ΧΑΡΟΥΛΑ said

    ΧΑΡΟΥΛΑ.ΚΑΛΗΣΠΕΡΑ ΚΑΘΟΜΑΙ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΒΑΖΩ ΤΑ ΣΧΟΛΙΑ ΣΑΣ ΓΙΑ ΤΗΝ ΓΕΝΟΚΤΟΝΙΑ ΤΩΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ ΙΣΡΑΗΛΙΤΩΝ ΣΤΑ ΚΡΕΜΑΤΟΡΙΑ.ΕΧΩ ΠΑΡΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΗΣΕΙ ΣΤΗΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ ΤΗΛΕΟΡΑΣΗ ΝΤΟΚΥΜΑΝΤΕΡ,ΜΕ ΜΑΡΤΥΡΙΕΣ,ΕΠΙΖΩΝΤΟΝ ΑΠΟ ΤΑ ΚΡΕΜΑΤΟΡΙΑ,ΚΑΙ ΟΛΟΙ ΜΙΛΟΥΝ ΓΙΑ ΤΗΝ ΜΕΓΑΛΗ ΕΥΘΥΝΗ ΠΟΥ ΕΙΧΕ Ο ΡΑΒΙΝΟΣ ΚΟΡΕΤΖ.ΟΛΟΙ ΤΟΝ ΑΠΟΚΑΛΟΥΝ «Η ΝΤΡΟΠΗ ΤΩΝ ΕΒΡΑΙΩΝ».ΤΑ ΝΤΟΚΥΜΑΝΤΕΡ ΑΥΤΑ ΤΑ ΕΧΩ ΚΡΑΤΗΣΗ ΩΣ ΑΡΧΕΙΟ.Ο ΜΩΥΣΗΣ ΜΠΟΥΡΛΑΣ Ο ΟΠΟΙΟΣ ΗΤΑΝ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΤΙΣΤΑΣΙΑΚΟΣ ΠΕΡΙΓΡΑΦΕΙ ΠΟΛΥ ΓΛΑΦΥΡΑ ΤΗΝ ΣΥΝΕΡΓΑΣΙΑ ΤΟΥ ΡΑΒΙΝΟΥ ΜΕ ΤΑ ΕΣ-ΕΣ.ΕΙΜΑΙ ΧΡΙΣΤΙΑΝΗ ΚΑΙ ΕΙΛΙΚΡΙΝΑ ΣΑΣ ΡΩΤΩ.ΤΙ ΔΙΑΦΟΡΑ ΕΧΩ ΑΠΟ ΕΝΑΝ ΕΒΡΑΙΟ-Α?ΤΙΠΟΤΑ ΑΠΟΛΥΤΟΣ.ΠΟΤΕ ΞΑΝΑ ΟΛΟΚΑΥΤΟΜΑ.ΕΥΧΑΡΙΣΤΩ.

  55. […] with sharp claws” being aided by “massonic lodges”. Metrop.of Salonica Anthimos, (already famous for other anti-jewish statements), said that Jews are being punished for killing Jesus Christ; the “Christ-Killer” card was also […]

  56. […] έναν υποψήφιο δήμαρχο που δεν είναι συνδεδεμένος με μεσαιωνικά κατεστημένα στην Θεσσαλονίκη που έχουν βάλει το μίσος τους για […]

  57. […] Μητροπολίτης Θεσσαλονίκης Άνθιμος είναι και αυτός παλιός γνώριμος του ιστολογίου – το 2008 είχαμε αναφερθεί στις δηλώσεις του οτι τα […]

  58. […] θα τιμηθεί ο πόλεμος στον οποίο πέθανε θα γίνει σε ένα ναό που χρησιμοποίησε κλεμμένα οικοδομικά υλικά από τους τάφους της οικογένειας του. Η παρέλαση θα […]

  59. […] θα τιμηθεί ο πόλεμος στον οποίο πέθανε θα γίνει σε ένα ναό που χρησιμοποίησε κλεμμένα οικοδομικά υλικά από τους τάφους της οικογένειας του. Η παρέλαση θα […]

  60. […] Δηλαδή δεν έφεραν αντίσταση και εικάζεται ότι βοήθησαν και αυτοί με τον τρόπο τους, ενώ μπορούσαν… Μπορούσαν να παν στην κομαντατούρ […]

  61. […] Δηλαδή δεν έφεραν αντίσταση και εικάζεται ότι βοήθησαν και αυτοί με τον τρόπο τους, ενώ μπορούσαν… Μπορούσαν να παν στην κομαντατούρ να […]

  62. […] ταφόπλακες στον Αγιο Δημήτριο/ πηγή: In Memoriam via https://abravanel.wordpress.com/2008/06/29/metropolite-anthimos-and-his-irrefutable-archives/ Κομβικό σημείο αποτελούσε η άρνηση του εφόρου […]

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